Bowers & Wilkins

[perodeformero]

Ona- "Što se ploča prerano završila"?

On- "Nisam uradio akustični tretman sobe".

Ona- "Ne brini, svakom može da se desi".

[Delija]

800 D4 serija je upravo predstavljena...

https://www.ecoustics.com/products/bowers-wilkins-800-d4-loudspeakers-2021/

https://www.stereonet.com/uk/news/new-bowers-wilkins-800-series-d4-range-revealed

[nkrgovic]

 Izgledaju prelepo... 

[Delija]

Kao i D3 malo previse podsecaju na vatrogasni aparat ili R2-D2 , ali uzivo 800 (sada 801) i 802 nisu losi. 803 i uzivo izgleda kao vatrogasni aparat - pogotovo u rosenut finisu.

[nkrgovic]

 Pazi, to su jako, jako zanimljivi zvucnici. Izgled je taj koji je i sta god mislio o njemu, realno je nesto posebno.

 Zvuk je takodje, sto je jako bitno, jako dobar. Izuzimajuci par zalbi na malo naglasenije visoke, realno fantastican - a opet, meni si pojasnijili da se to "lako resava", tako sto zvucnici nemaju pun toe-in kao vecina. Valjda je (to je bar prica koju je meni neko pricao) ideja bila da ces ih zbog dizajna drzati pod pravim uglom, tj. paralelno zidu sobe - pa da visoku budu "bas kako treba" u tom polozaju.... 

 Ono sto sam ja cuo, mada nisam imao neku sesiju "punog slusanja", je bilo jako dobro. Voleo bi da imam vremena da neke od tih novijih serija (D2/D3) cujem uzivo kako valja...

[Delija]

Imao sam par slusnih sesija D3 serije u vreme kada sam "jurio" nove zvucnike - od sjaja do ocaja i nazad. Najveci ocaj je bio kod Korata - 803 D3 na njihovim spravama. Ponizavajuce. Srecom, nisam bio sam - imam i svedoka inace mi ne bi verovali koliko ocajno je zvucalo 

U Holandiji sam slusao 802 D3 u ozbiljno tretiranoj prostoriji / salonu. Vecina drugih zvucnika bi bila nacisto mrtva u takvim uslovima - D3 je sjajno zvucao, ali cak i tada nikako nisu voleli da sviraju bilo sta sa iole losijom produkcijom. Neki snimci su zvucali spektakularno.

[nkrgovic]

8 minuta ranije, Delija said:

U Holandiji sam slusao 802 D3 u ozbiljno tretiranoj prostoriji / salonu. Vecina drugih zvucnika bi bila nacisto mrtva u takvim uslovima - D3 je sjajno zvucao, ali cak i tada nikako nisu voleli da sviraju bilo sta sa iole losijom produkcijom.

 Sad tu ima par pitanja:

• Koliko je to zapravo mana, ako nesto lose producirano zvuci lose? Da, ja slusam mnogo toga sto pada u tu kategoriju, ali, da li je to ZAPRAVO lose?
• Koliko je to moguce peglati npr. izvorom koji je malo vise, sto kazu, "forgiving"?

 Cisto rekreativno pitajne: secas li se postavke? Koliko ova "bez toe-in-a" prica ima smisla?

[Delija]

Oni se uvek slusaju bez toe-in-a. Tako su projektovani.

McIntosh elektronika. U Koratu njhove sprave - ali dobrim delom je akustika prostorije kriva.

 

Ne lose producirano - vec samo ne vrhunski.

Jbs sistem na kom Metallica - Metallica (iliti Black Album) svira do moga i nazad.

A to je jedan od bolje produciranih hard rock / (soft  ) metal  albuma.

[Delija]

Zavisi dosta i od afiniteta. Vrlo moguce da ce mi takav zvucni balans prijati kad jos malo ogluvim  Trenutno mi smeta previse svetao zvuk.

[nkrgovic]

1 sat ranije, Delija said:

Ne lose producirano - vec samo ne vrhunski.

Jbs sistem na kom Metallica - Metallica (iliti Black Album) svira do moga i nazad.

A to je jedan od bolje produciranih hard rock / (soft  ) metal  albuma.

 Pazi, ima i krs i pristojnih izdanja tog albuma.... nije da nema.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=metallica

 Ali da, razumem sta hoces da kazes.

[Sonichammer]

2 sati ranije, Delija said:

...Jbs sistem na kom Metallica - Metallica (iliti Black Album) svira do moga i nazad.

A to je jedan od bolje produciranih hard rock / (soft  ) metal  albuma.

Pa bas i ne...

Metallica - Metallica je sve samo ne dobro produciran album.

Na vecini uravnotezenih i “neutralnih” sistema svira tanko.

Na zvucnicima sa blago do solidno (pre)naglasenim bass spektrom svira pristojno.

Daleko je bolji ali ne i idealan Master of puppets S. Hoffman remaster.

Takodje, doticni bend ni pod razno ne moze da se podvede pod hard rock, jos manje pod soft metal. 😁

 

Ali sto rece NK, razumem sta si hteo da kazes.

[Delija]

Realno, "limunadica" od albuma u odnosu na prve albume. Zato se i sprdam na tu temu.

Nije on nesto specijalno dobro produciran - nego je prosek kod rock/metal muzike porazavajuci.

Ima razlike u izdanjima, ali taj album ne sme da zvuci "tanko" ni pod razno - inace je krsh od sistema

Na sta tek onda na tom sistemu lici Ride the Lightning, pa makar i DCC izdanje? Ne smem ni da zamislim 

Da se razumemo - ne "drma" bas kao Garage Inc., ali znas to dobro i ti

 

[nkrgovic]

1 sat ranije, Sonichammer said:

Daleko je bolji ali ne i idealan Master of puppets S. Hoffman remaster.

Takodje, doticni bend ni pod razno ne moze da se podvede pod hard rock, jos manje pod soft metal. 😁

 

 Skroz druga prica, da... Master je album koji ima i emotivni naboj i svasta...  Realno, na cemu sam ga ja prvo cuo - pa je i dalje bilo... fantasticno.  

 

[Delija]

 

[sondek]

8 sati ranije, nkrgovic said:

 Sad tu ima par pitanja:

• Koliko je to zapravo mana, ako nesto lose producirano zvuci lose?  

Ogromna.

[NL.]

Ali to onda nije dosledno idealu verne reprodukcije, zar ne?

Ako je produkcija loša, verna reprodukcija neće da je ulepšava, nego će verno da izbaci isti materijal koji je i ušao u sistem.

Drugo je pitanje da li to nama prija i da li želimo takvu “iskrenost” od svog hifi sistema.

[NL.]

22 sati ranije, Delija said:

800 D4 serija je upravo predstavljena...

https://www.ecoustics.com/products/bowers-wilkins-800-d4-loudspeakers-2021/

https://www.stereonet.com/uk/news/new-bowers-wilkins-800-series-d4-range-revealed

Sjajno izgledaju! Par moćnih B&W iz serije 800 su mi jedna od neostvarenih želja.

Sa kojim pojačalima se najbolje/najčešče uparuju?

[Delija]

McIntosh - jer je tunjav, pa ublazi to sto su izrazito "svetli".

Kod hife se suprotnosti po pravilu privlace

[Delija]

1 sat ranije, NL. said:

Ali to onda nije dosledno idealu verne reprodukcije, zar ne?

Ako je produkcija loša, verna reprodukcija neće da je ulepšava, nego će verno da izbaci isti materijal koji je i ušao u sistem.

Drugo je pitanje da li to nama prija i da li želimo takvu “iskrenost” od svog hifi sistema.

I da i ne.

Za mene - jedan od vrlo bitnih kvaliteta dobrog Hi-FI sistema je da ne akcentuju mane loseg snimka, a da u isto vreme prikazu sve prednosti dobrog snimka.

[Milosav Grozni]

conditio sine qua non dobrog sistema....Šta unutra isto to napolje.

Nema akcentovanja dobrog a skrivanja lošeg, ili obrnuto. Ako to sistem radi, onda farba zvuk. Bilo kakva rasprava o ovom u "HI-fi-u ili Hi-End-u je bespredmetna. 

Drugo i jednako važno. Zvuk je onakav kakav su hteli kompozitori, izvođači umetnici, producenti, nažalost ponekad menadžeri ( daj što jeftinije...), izdavačka kuća. Vrlo često i godine kada su snimci nastajali. Snimak iz 1947, 1953... nema šanse da zvuči ko da je juče nastao. Sistem samo treba što vernije da prenese informaciju sa nosećeg medijuma. Ni manje, ni više. Čuje se i dobro i loše. Sistem je tu sam radni konj koji prenosi informaciju. Bolje il lošije

 

[Delija]

Svaki sistem farba zvuk. 100% transparentan sistem ne postoji.

Izbaci sve drugo iz fomule I pogledaj samo frekventni odziv bilo kog zvucnika na svetu - cak i da ne dodas (vrlo znacajan) uticaj prosecne sobe.

[Milosav Grozni]

Naravno, zato i postoje ovakvi forumi da bi videli šta manje farba zvuk, da bi se približili idealu prirodnog a ne sakrivanja. Kada bi bili po tome šta si napisao, koji će nam onda skupi ( manje li više ) uređaji, razglabanja o sinergiji itd... jel Farba? Farba. Daj brate što jeftinije i ajd po pivu. Naravno da nije tako. Samo nek se približe naši sistemi što bliže idealu prirodnog. A sobe ostavimo na miru. to je drugi par čarapa i posebna tema. Sistem što neutralniji, a ostalo šta nam Bog i dunđer zidar da.

[Father]

15 minuta ranije, Delija said:

100% transparentan sistem ne postoji.

 

 

[Delija]

Vrlo zanimljivo poredjenje 802 D3 vs D4 od strane dugogodisnjeg vlasnika D3:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=50373

 

Preliminary:
Finally, I was able to hear both side by side. This was proving to be a much more difficult endeavor than I had initially thought. I was able to listen to the 802D2 vs the 803D3 in the same room back when the D3 were just released in 2015. However, with covid, it seems like the purchase of high end equipment goes a lot faster, or atleast when there's a deal to be had.

Because there was no one in the Dallas area with a leftover 802D3 by the time the D4 were shipping, my sales guy and I decided that the only way was for me to put a deposit on an existing 802D3 display model to hold it while the D4 was making its way via the shipping courier. So I put a deposit... and held the only pair of 802D3. The 802D4 landed earlier this week, and I was finally able to give the 2 some time for the first time today.

I listened to both for approximately 3 hours. I must have gone back and forth about 8x. We listened to various artists from Adele, Ed Sheeran, Sam Smith, Vanessa Fernandez, Moana OST, Top Gun OST, Jane Monheit, Whitney Houston Bodyguard OST, Spectre OST, and a bunch others. We also segued to Jessica Simpson's cover of Take My Breath Away.

Intro:
I did not expect much out of the comparison between the two. Just by glancing at both, there isn't too much of a difference. The reverse wrap is the same, the cabinet volume seems similar, the turbine head seems similar, the 4 drivers are similar, in terms of cone material and size.

Given that, I expected to hear a minimal difference if at all. I just wanted to do this comparison as an exercise in academics.

Build Differences:
The D4 has a leather top - with a more bulbous and upward angled collar of the cabinet - the area right below the turbine region. The D4 also has a longer tweeter structure which lowers the resonance... and I believe the tweeter motor structure has 1 less magnet to allow for more easy breathing of the diamond tweeter from behind the driver. In addition, the plinth is larger, more lateral support I believe. I also noted that the plinth has 2 screws that are visible towards the rear, I believe those are related to the spikes. Lastly, I noted that the 802D4 has a lower orientation (vertically) of the bass drivers. I believe this would lead to a quicker floor reflection compared to the older 802D3, which means that the image height might be pulled down.

Another difference are the grills, they are now magnetic to the surrounding metal of the drivers rather than a large grill covering the 2 woofers as was noted on the 802D3.

Also, I noticed that the grill for the tweeter was more open on the d4 than on the D3. The grill frame just seems skinnier and less grill and more air space.

Sonic differences:
So, while I expected only a small/minor difference and I did this back to back audition just as a way for me to hear the two for myself but more for academic purposes just so I know what I'm missing, if anything.

So what did I hear?

1. 802D4 is warmer. The 802D3 is comparatively hotter in the upper midrange. I can tell the SSS and TTT were more pronounced with the 802D3 (keep in mind, these speakers have been broken in since 5 years). For example, during Adele's Someone Like You, there are many portions during the latter half of the song where the D3 would accentuate the SSS and the TTT causing a brighter image. The leading edges of the notes also appeared sharper and the sustain was also brighter.

2. 802D4 has a more transparent and natural sound, especially with vocals. The 802D3 (and the sales guys agreed) has this artificial way of presenting a lot of vocalists. It may seem at times that the singer has more meat to the bones on the 802D3, but if you break it down, the singer has a resonance artifact, sounds to me like it's almost as if the singer was close mic'd. And while the resonance may add meat to the bones, I noted that this was only apparent with only some frequency range.... meaning that once Adele really got going, her voice would lose the image specificity and would lose that body as if she pulled her mouth away from the microphone... odd indeed.

3. Imaging was better with the 802D4. The soundstage didnt seem as forced forward as on the 802D3. Let me explain, the D3 had more force to the vocalist, it would appear a step forward in the stage. Now while this seems good, the 802D4 had a more relaxed stage. And while the singer didn't have as much energey as on the D3, the D4 was able to suspend belief because once you got used to its type of imaging, you could easily follow the notes and the act better on the 802D4 compared to the relatively messy soundstage of the 802D3.

4. Atmosphere. Wow. I thought the 802D3 was good at this, but it was probably one of the best attributes of the 802D4. The atmosphere was just scary good. The room was better materialized on the D4. It was as if the corners of the room were just holographic. Whereas the atmosphere was lacking on the 802D3. Not sure if it's because of the bass being more present and more natural on the D4....

5. Image height, mouth height. This was a big one for me. I found that the 802D3 mouth height was too tall relative to the 802D4. The D4 mouth height was just right, felt like there was power coming from even below the mouth height as if the energy was coming from the singer's diaphragm. On the 802D3, because the image height, mouth height was taller, you could sense a vacuum of sound below the vertical midline.

6. Bass. Bass was definitely more present, more natural, and more sustained on the 802D4 compared to the 802D3. The pianos felt more natural and more like a regular grand as opposed to a baby grand or an upright. Speed was just as quick. No overhang that I could detect. I'm sure the 801D4 would be even more majestic with the bass.... but that's unlikely for me and my room size.... as I had issues with 800D3 in my room a couple years ago, and after I had initially upgraded from my 802D3 to the 800D3, I found myself missing the overall balance of my 802D3 in my room that I had the dealer trade back my 802D3 and he took away the 800D3.

7. Natural sound - warmer. I felt like one other big difference between the 2 is the naturalness of the 802D4.... significantly more natural yet clear imaging and tone. After going back and forth between the 2 speakers, I was convinced that I wasn't hearing things, the D3 sounded amusical by comparison.

Conclusion:
I came in thinking there would be no difference, and I left sad. Sad because now I know I must have these 802D4. Sad because now I'm going to have to find a buyer for my 802D3 and I'm going to have to go through what all of us audiophiles dread - the packing of the units, the posting of the units for sale, the dealing with low ballers, the lifting down the stairs, and the pallet and strapdown. Ugh.....

I'm lucky I was able to arrange the back to back demo between the 2 speakers. Even though the room was imperfect, even though the speakers were staggered in positioning and there was no true central seat in the room, I still felt that I was able to get a good sense of the differences between the 2 speakers.

The 802D4 is more natural, warmer, less bright, better imaging height of vocalist's mouth, the stage was better layered front to back, the atmosphere was better on the D4.

There was less artifact on the D4. The D4 was easier to follow in my mind, the stage was easier to unpack on the D4. Mentally, my brain was falling for the illusion of the performance many times more than on the D3.

In the end, I also noted that I had about 7 or 8 episodes of goosebumps - all on the D4.

I recall that when I auditioned the 802D2 vs 803D3, by the time I made the decision that I was ready to upgrade to my D2 to the D3, it took me about 10 auditions to commit. In the end, I felt like the 803D3 was better by approximately 25% for my musical preferences. The biggest thing I recall the D3 did that the D2 didn't was remove the haze around the image of the instrument/voice.

But comparatively, the D4 is a significantly better speaker to the D3 than the D3 was to the D2. I truly believe that. The 802D4 corrected almost all of the deficits I know I have been living with the 802D3, it's as if Bowers had read my mind.

I do not think for a medium size room and medium listening levels, I don't think I have heard a better, more put together, more complete speaker than the 802D4. By the end of the demo, I stopped switching back and forth as it was a fruitless endeavor. The 802D4 was just so good.

I left the demo knowing that there was no way I wasn't going to upgrade. The question will be do I entertain the 801D4 or do I stick to the 802D4.... and then - black or walnut?

Summary:
The 802D4 is a more refined version of the 802D3. The 802D3 feels like it left Steiynig a little too early or the production was rushed, it sounds incomplete and discombobulated by comparison.

Unequivocally, for me, the 802D4 is best speaker I have experienced (for my preferences and biases) in a medium sized room.

 

 

[banebg81]

Mnogo lep video, ovaj englez što je obišao fabriku  

Odlična fabrika, definitivno, za neke prosečne i iznad prosečne korisnike, sjajni zvučnici. Dizajn, kvalitet zvuka, sve je na svom mestu.

Da ima bolje, verovatno ima. Da ima jeftinije a bolje, takođe.

Ali, ovo je prava stvar, za 20 ak hiljada evra, pun pogodak