Povratak na analogni sistem

[giZ_Mo]

Мислим да је у целој причи главнији изглед тј. дизајн него техничке карактеристике.

[Krca44]

Gospodine Aoxomoxoa ja sam dao misljenje koje je samo to , nista drugo, postoji mogucnost da nisam uopste u pravu.

Svakako pre bilo kakve akcije mislim da treba probati pa videti, mozda na toj strani ne treba nista da se radi.

Na osnovu dosadasnjeg iskustva ( koje je ipak limitirano ) sve mi se cini da se malu sumu novca tesko moze naci cak i polovno pojacalo koje bi "guralo" Harbethe kako treba, da ima snage i da ima rafinmana, sto je mislim bitno jer zvucnici ocigledno imaju rafinman.

Zvucnici su sjani sami po sebi, sto se kaze za "penziju",  odgovaraju prostoru i mogu da ga popune zvukom.

Potencijal postoji vec sada samo ga mislim treba izvuci na videlo ( da tako kazem ),  kad sam usao, za Greatful Dead i taj tip muzike nisam mario a izasao sam sa saznajem da mi se vrlo svidja, i to govori dosta.

[srdjan_cvetkovic]

S obzirom da sam bio kod čoveka i video/čuo sistem, mislim da nije neko ko se loži na dizajn, a zvuk stavlja u drugi plan. Rekao bih da je čak i obratno, pošto osim kutija ostatak sistema i ne vrca preterano od neke lepote.

Strujno potentno pojačalo koje može da “nahrani” kutije “gladne” struje, sa bar 4 dobra izlazna tranzistora po kanalu. Po meni je to ono što mora uzme u obzir kad bude tražio nešto adekvatno.

[Krca44]

Meni se estetski jako svidja resenje Tandberga na zidovima 

[srdjan_cvetkovic]

Nisam mislio na njega, više na snagaša koji i inije neki lepotan.

[giZ_Mo]

55 minuta ranije, Krca44 said:

Meni se estetski jako svidja resenje Tandberga na zidovima 

Само за то и ваљају.

[Krca44]

Zaboravio sam da ponesem kasetu 

Snagash nije lepotan, ali ne mora da bude,  lepo je imati kvalitetno estetski dizajnirane aparate ali nije presudan faktor,  za lampe bi neko mogao reci da su one cak i fetish kad ih vidis u otvorenom dizajnu ali ono sto je stvarno bitno jeste muzika.

[Aoxomoxoa]

Imao sam davno Yamaha CA-810 koja mi je estetski prijala mnogo vise od ovog modela.Ali ovde uopste nije rec o Yamahi,ona je samo primer koji je dat od strane konstruktora Harbetha.

A ko sam ja da diskutujem sa konstruktorom svetski priznatog brenda?Obican zaljubljenik u muziku,tehnicki nepotkovan,blage veze nemam kako sta funkcionise.

Zato ovde iznosim razmisljanja coveka koji treba da zna sta prija njegovim zvucnicima.Pa nece valjda da preporuci nesko pojacalo koje ce sprziti njegove zvucnike?

Morao sam da ga citiram poprilicno,jer samo tako se mogu sagledati stvari iz pravog ugla.Ako je nekom predugacko,neka preskoci sledece:

I think that we are all acutely aware that just as Fiat 500 will get you from A to B, there are folk who have the means and motivation to buy a Bentley or Aston Martin. Our economic system depends upon such consumption, and we all benefit.

What is deeply frustrating to those with an engineering bias is illogical BS which stands no scrutiny whatsoever in the cold, cool light of day. It is assumed that those who gravitate to Harbeth as a brand have been through the near-ruinous churn of equipment after equipment, after more ill-advised equipment, to finally reach a point where they realise that the clock is ticking and that they got onto the merry-go-round to get closer to the music, not the credit card bank. I'm one of them, and indeed, we could not design the speakers to sound as natural as they do if I as their creator was enthralled by audio equipment. I'm not. It's a tool to do a job. I'd much, much rather go to a concert. The overeager fascination with a hifi gear evaporated long ago, and that empowered me to transcend equipment and focus on music.

What is, frankly, a deception, is the widely held view in audiophilia that if you pay more you must get more. There is no truth in this: the relationship between cost and selling price is much more nuanced, and it is absolutely untrue to say that an inexpensive amplifier - say one costing a few hundred pounds - must inevitably be technically inferior to one costing ten times as much. There is no scientific basis for such a generalisation whatever. Indeed, under the technical microscope, the opposite may well be true, or at least the difference be so marginal - if at all - that it challenges test equipment and a careful audition. Pride of ownership, cosmetics, long term durability, brand image and so or are entirely separate, parallel matters not to be confused with the amp's primary role: to be a straight wire with gain.

So, against that background as far as HUG is concerned, if the question about 'what amp' rears its head (again) the answer is - practically anything, starting from a few hundred quid upwards. Would I use such an amp during design? Yes if it has, say, 100W/channel clean output. Would I use it at a trade show to demo Harbeth speakers? Why the devil not? Why not proclaim good and loud that No.1 on my design spec-sheet is that a Harbeth is an easy electrical load that works with just about any half-decent amp? Why foster an illusion that buying the speakers is only part of the journey to nirvana ... and that in quick succession there needs to be an upgrade of cables, stands, amps, interconnects, room-tuning devices, front-ends and all the rest?

Why shouldn't such modestly priced amps from major corporations work powerfully enough and transparently enough to drive good speakers? Amplifier design unlike, say 3D TV design, is a mature engineering subject where the circuit variable were comprehensively understood decades ago. So why not, like most mass produced consumer electronics in a competitive marketplace, should prices not fall and features and performance increase with the passing years? Three hundred quid buys a fabulous amount of modern technology.

This year has been our best ever. It is of particular pleasure to note that UK sales have markedly increased and are now a very vibrant part of our business. Offering inexpensive baseline amplifiers here on HUG apparently has no negative influence whatever on folk with the means to invest in a new pair of Anniversary Harbeth's combined, we hear, with fine and attractive audio electronics too. If they have the cash, and it fulfills an emotional need, why not? Go for it.

But that's not the same thing as saying that consumers must spend outside their comfort zone to get great sound. They absolutely needn't.

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First, it is a sad fact that in many industries that the poor manufacturer makes the smallest margin. Think Foxconn, Apple's contractor in China, responsible for half a million staff, and vast investment in production facilities. As we see here, their margin is somewhere around 5-7%, and most would agree that they have the most complex job in the chain that brings advanced technology products to the consumer reliably and at low prices.

I made a back-of-envelope calculation as to how Yamaha would allocate staff to the design of a product like the A-S501 or similar. I don't know if that is the product of a full time team dedicated to amplifiers, or a more ad-hoc arrangement sharing staff across a number of product lines. The person responsible for designing the packing carton may well design cartons for a wide range of Yamaha consumer goods. Ditto the person who writes the user manual. I'd estimate that bringing such a product to market would involve at least 15-25 top-notch individuals wholly familiar with amplifier design, manufacture and marketing, maybe a lot more if the skill sets necessary are more diluted. Consider the critical importance of the layout of PSU and ground tracks on the printed circuit board to minimise hum and buzz - that's not a job for trial and error (I speak from personal experience); that is a lifetime's tacit knowledge of what works and doesn't work.

As for timescale: I'd estimate that in a rolling marketing/product introduction programme looking forward a couple of years, that from concept to off-the-line, such an amp would take 9-12 months of work. So now look at the project as a profit contribution. Let's say that twenty staff earning annually, say $50,000, spent half a year working on this amp. That's $500,000, plus tooling-up, and other costs. Let's double that to $1,000.000 total project/development budget signed-off by management in advance.

Now, what we don't now is the number of units of this amp that the global market can consume. Bearing in mind that its a rolling product development programme, there will only be a limited production window of say, 12 months. So, just to cover the R&D investment, the design has to pay for itself in a year. How many could be sold? I was quite shocked when I heard that a famous ex-UK amp brand now in overseas hands was making annual runs of hundreds of amps, so let's dream that 10,000 of these Yamahas could be sold globally in a year. We can see then that the design cost of an amp retailing for about $300 (UK about GBP250) could have $100 of design costs in its price alone. That's before we consider any of the components, the casework, remote, packaging and so on.

Then we have to knock-off the 20% VAT from the UK retail price and we're down to GBP200. Once we've taken away the dealers margin It should be no surprise that the manufacturer is making, if he is very lucky indeed, perhaps $10 for his efforts. This is a simply outrageous reward for his knowledge investment. And of course, he will need to widen his retail outlet network to anyone, anywhere who will stock the product because he has to maximise production volume. That'll inevitably motivate the specialist retailer to be sniffy about a product he sees in the supermarket or on-line.

The alternative business strategy would be to sell 1,000 of these amps, but to price them at ten times as much - $3000 each - which is, of course, precisely the commercial marketing model that boutique audio equipment manufacturers follow because they do not have access to volume distribution.

This is just one reason that I become frustrated by the disrespect that audiophiles show to first-grade engineers working in structured corporate teams to bring leading-edge products to the consumers for a maker's profit equivalent to a pint or two of beer per piece. Imagine the mental torture of being an engineer working on insanely sophisticated consumer products to tight budget, timescale and demanded-feature remits. It must be the very definition of workplace stress.

It would be very interesting to hear from someone close to world-class consumer electronic design and manufacturing about the squeeze on margins and the pressure of work.

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Ummm. I've never seen such small heat sinks in a quality audio amplifier. I'd not expect them to be able to dissipate more than a handful of watts before the output transistors are cooked. That really is most surprising indeed. What is the retail price of this amp? That will obviously have a big impact on cost/performance of the component parts.

Just look at the technology that you get in the Yamaha, and the huge heatsinks. You can well visualise the sort of engineering skills needed across digital, alanolgue, power supply, remote control and so on. And to eliminate RF interference between the digital and analogue circuitry is a technical miracle.

Question: I'm sorely tempted to buy a Yamaha A-S501 to use at the Bristol show next February. Would seem just the right features/power for the P3s.

What sort of message would that send to visitors? That Harbeth speakers were 'only good enough to be used with mass-market (read: cheap) amplifiers? That 'Harbeth was not playing the game and support its dealers'? That 'Harbeth have lost the plot'? That 'Harbeth are so disinteresed in showcasing their speakers to best effect that any old amp they had kicking around would do?

Or that 'Harbeth have proved that you don't need fancy electronics to make great sound ... that leaves me able to decide as and when to upgrade my amp, not at the point of investing in new Harbeth speakers ...'

Your answers to that decide if I get my credit card out or not. Of course, in the other room we'd use the big Hagel we own.

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Amazing Yamaha

I thought I'd have a close look at the technical lab results of the A-S500 as revealed in the Australian HiFi review. They are nothing short of spectacularly good. Extremely impressive, and I would have no hesitation giving this serious consideration myself.

One thing we've touched upon in our many ramblings over "amplifier sonic signatures" is the interaction betwen the amplifier and the speaker load. Specifically, the ups and downs of the speaker impedance can, but shouldn't, manifest itself in a correspodning up and down in the loudness of the sounds produced by the speakers across octave audio bands. This interaction is not mystical, nor magical , nor unsurprising, nor particularly related to audio. Indeed, a power amplifier in a factory driving, say, a motor (which is a coil, just like a speaker) will have the same interaction issues at frequency/speeds.

We have commeted before, and I can vouch for this with my own previously reported A-B comparisons, that when audio event A and B differ in loudness (at matching frequencies) by more than +/-0.2dB, A and B will take-on a "sonic characters" to the human ear. So, let's look at the lab results for the Yamaha. What we hope to see is that the frequency response of the amp unloaded is ruler flat in the audio band - say 50Hz to 15kHz or so - and that when loaded by a real-world speaker load, the voltage drive to the speaker deviates from perfect flatness by less than +/-0.2dB. That would make the amplifier in practical terms, perfect.

I've loaded the review to our public on-line store and I've drawn onto Graph 5, two blue horizontal lines along the +0.2dB and -0.2dB markers. Now we can easily look along the measured frequency response at the amp output to the speakers and we see the red line (amp,loaded) compared with unloaded (black) trace deviates by no more than about +/-0.05dB. This is the best measurement I have ever made myself, far better than a high-end Canadian power amp costing five times as much and not much more powerful, and a lot better than the Quad 405, which itself is very good (i.e the output is barely influenced by the load).

This is exceptional result. World-class. A massive hat's off to the Yamaha engineers. 'Tinny' this spec is not.

PDF here.


Now we have a benchmark, perhaps we could look at the load variability of other amplifiers. If we find that their frequency response varies by more than about +/-0.2dB from flat when loaded with a typical loudspeaker load, we can say with high confidence that the amp will have a detectable "sonic signature". Again, no mystery. Logical, basic electro-acoustics. Tube amps will demonstrate the most dramatic load sensitivity, and ergo, sonic signature.

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Well obviously, to anyone with an ear over 30 or so, +/-1dB at 10kHz is etremely unlikey to draw attention to itself except under the most carefully controlled test conditions. So that's a red herring.

Well, the Yamaha A-S701 has just arrived. I have no enthusiasm to open the carton. It is, after all, just an audio amplifier. I will check it sometime in the new year, if reminded. We plan to use it at Bristol in February. Please come and say hello! You'll be most welcome.

Again for the avoidance of doubt, I refer to you numerous posts (incl. # 54 above) where I have bent over backwards to make Harbeths 'amplifier agnostic' position abundently clear. We are not trying to rob specialist audio dealers of profit by suggesting that an inexpensive mass-produced amplifier is all you need.

What we are saying is that the specifications of an amplifier fairly priced like this Yamaha (and doubtless Pioneer, Denon, Marantz offereings, and so on) with such an exemplary technical performance proves that great contemporary amplifier technology need not be expensive, and is the amplifier baseline you need to be confident that your Harbeth speakers will make great music. Particulalry your smaller Harbeths, such as the P3ESR.

Is this amp a better investment than an antique amplifier? You decide, but I'd say most likely so, except perhaps in the emotional department.

Please spend more - much, much more on your audio electronics and keep your specialist dealer and other Europeans in work.

[Krca44]

31 minutes ago, Aoxomoxoa said:

A ko sam ja da diskutujem sa konstruktorom svetski priznatog brenda?

Ti si covek koji je kupio te zvucnike zato sto ti se svidjaju i tvoje uvo i tvoje misljenje je mnogo bitnije od onog sto kaze konstruktor aparata koji posedujes ( ili neko drugi ) zato sto si ti taj koji ga koristi kod sebe u svom prostoru sa muzikom koju volis.

Procitao sam sve sto si stavio u post sem pdf fajla i slazem se da cena nije indikacija kvaliteta ali takodje moram da naponem da Autor pocinje pricu uopsteno da dokaze odredjen princip i pritom koristi Yamahu kao primer, pojacalo koje je kako sam kaze merio na test stolu sa jos nekima ali nigde ne kaze da je zaista i slusao to pojacalo sa bilo kojim svojim zvucnicima. Ono sto kaze sushtinski se svodi "na cistih 100W".

Ako bi ti kupio Yamahu i ona kod tebe svirala fantasticno, licno bio bih srecan sto si nasao kombinaciju koja radi kod tebe a pritom nisi potrosio veliku sumu novca.

Sve najbolje ti zelim,  Krca  

[Aoxomoxoa]

Samo da napomenem da je cela prica o Yamahi nastala kao odgovor na pitanje clana da li se isplati uloziti u pojacalo starije generacije(Accuphase),sa svim potrebnim osvezavanjima,i da li ce ono pored svih ulaganja,raditi kao sto je radilo kao novo.

Neki drugi clan je pomenuo Yamahu kao primer dobrog novog pojacala,pa se i Alan Shaw osvrnuo u svom komentaru na nju.

Mislim da je poenta njegovog odgovora upravo u merenju karakteristika pojacala.I naravno da ono sto bi njemu bio izbor,ne znaci i da ce prijati i meni.Ali to je druga prica.

[Father]

Opet se vraćamo na merenja i slušanja. Kada se dodaju i faktori sinergije i prostorije to je već složena jednačina za preporuku bilo čega.

On ipak govori o pojačalu A-S500 a ti si spominjao Yamaha A-S501(440e) koje je dosta lošije od pomenutog u njegovim merenjima. Našao sam negde zaključke testa u What HiFi-ju čini mi se, nisam siguran.

Bolje malo probe i slušanja, koliko je to moguće, pa možda i paralano sa tim osvežavanje postojećeg pojačala, pa opet nakon osvežavanja poređenje njega sa tim što se čulo tokom testiranja drugih pojačala i zaključak da li ići u zamenu poajačala ili ne.

Svakako ćeš lakše prodati osveženo pojačalo staro 30 godina nego tako kakvo je sada. A možda nećeš morati uopšte da ga prodaješ na karaju cele igrarije.

[Krca44]

Mozda amp i ne treba da se menja , kao sto rekoh nisam strucnjak,  ako smo na kraju uzivali u muzici sa njim i to je neki zakljucak ( indikator ).

Hteo sam reci da konstruktor poznaje svoje delo najbolje ali kad se to delo nadje u stanu korisnika onda i konstruktor pada na kategoriju vracare, a na pitanje sta radi dobro.

A da li ce bilo koje pojacalo posle 20/25/30 godina posle ozvezavanja raditi kao "novo"...  mislim da je odgovor vrlo ocigledan ako je neko posedovao par takvih aparata.

Koliko znam Accuphase pod osvezavanjem podrazumeva zamenu svih kondova u napajanju, svih tranzistora u izlazu i jos svakog elementa koji pokazuje znake izlaska van oprativnih parametara.  Skraceno takav refresh kosta jedno 1,000 $ ili nesto vise sa sve transportom u Japan.

[Aoxomoxoa]

Upravo o tome se i vodila diskusija.Da li se isplati uloziti toliko novca u osvezeni pojacivac(pitanje je neumesno ako imate visak novca za takva zadovoljstva,uostalom to bih i ja voleo),ili kupiti novo pojacalo(Yamaha ili neko slicno u tom cenovnom razredu), a da muzicki dozivljaj bude isti,ili slican.

Diskutovalo se o tome da li je zelja za brendiranim,lepsim,ali starim trideset i vise godina pojacalom,stvar samo zelje za posedovanjem doticnog pojacala,a ne potreba sa kojom ce zvucnici bolje svirati.

Zaintrigiran ovom debatom,resio sam da odlozim do daljneg kupovinu phono preampa,dok se ne uverim u to.

Yamaha A S-500 nema coax ulaz,pa zato ne dolazi u obzir.

[sondek]

Servis pojačala uopšte ne košta tako mnogo,barem ne kod svih firmi.Ja sam upravo dobio ponudu od ovlaštenog naim servisa od 189funti za pun zvanični servis originalnim delovima.U domaćoj radinosti, osnosno kod nasih servisera dakle još dosta jeftinije.Računica je prosta,ako nađeš polovno sačuvano pojacalo u 30-50% od cene isplati se itekako.

Btw.Harbeth tog monitorskog tipa fantastično pokazuje razlike u ostatku sistema,probao sam svoje sa 4 tipa pojacala i zvuk se žestoko razlikovao.Ovo sa Yamahom kao adekvatnim ampom je nešto kao verovanje u deda mraza.Verovatno pogađaju Alana priče da je 83db nezgodacija pa si dao malo oduška ,a i neko će da prerasporedi ukupan budžet u pravcu njegovog džepa... marketinški: skidam kapu.

[Krca44]

Accuphase je samo primer, transport do Japana i nazad verovatno kosta najvise, znam i ja da moze da se uradi jeftinije, hteo sam reci sta sve radi Accu i da za velike novce ne menjaju samo kondove vec i uparene tranzistore izlaznih stepena.... i da i tako nece raditi kao novo sto ne znaci da ce raditi lose.

Mislim da svakako treba cuti bilo koje pojacalo kako radi sa Harbethima pre bilo kakve kupovine ( koja mozda nije potrebna uopste ) , eto da se dalje ne pravim pametan.

Kad je Wilson pre desetak godina izbacio najmanje kutije sa cenom malo ispod 10K $ na prezentaciji u Britaniji namerno je stavljeno pojacalo 10x jeftinije,  sve sa zvakom da nije najbitniji izvor vec zvucnici i da mozes Wilson ( taj model ) da guras sa bilo cim, on ce zvucati fenomenalno.... marketing cist.

Mali Harbethi su izuzetno kvalitetni ali nimalo me ne cudi to sto konstruktora peckaju za 83dB,  ja sam probao kako radi zatvoren trosistemac od cca. 85-86 dB sa lampama i naravno bas nisam imao (8"), niti punu muzicku sliku a pritom se jadni lampash usijao od napora.

1 hour ago, Aoxomoxoa said:

Yamaha A S-500 nema coax ulaz,pa zato ne dolazi u obzir.

Zasto je coax bitan ?  Vas DAC je dobar.

[giZ_Mo]

7 sati ranije, Aoxomoxoa said:

 da li se isplati uloziti u pojacalo starije generacije(Accuphase),sa svim potrebnim osvezavanjima,i da li ce ono pored svih ulaganja,raditi kao sto je radilo kao novo.

Исплати се, још како ће радити и боље него ново. 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Mislio sam da ustedim.Da ga prodam ,a iskoristim Yamahu.

Ako je sve ovo markenting,onda sam skoro pa naseo na njega.Sto nije cudno za moje godine,matorce je najlakse obradjivati.

Evo,poslusacu vase savete,raspitacu se koliko kosta refresh mog pojacala,pa ako cena bude povoljna,uradicu ga.Tada cu biti malo pametniji. Mada po svemu receno,ni snaga mog pojacala od 30rms u A klasi,nije adekvatna zvucnicima.

[srdjan_cvetkovic]

Nije tu snaga, nego struja.

[giZ_Mo]

1 sat ranije, Aoxomoxoa said:

ni snaga mog pojacala od 30rms u A klasi,nije adekvatna zvucnicima.

Који је то појачавач ако није тајна?

[Aoxomoxoa]

Sto me mucis,kakva struja?

Pojacalo je DIY. Evo iznutrica:

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

[Aoxomoxoa]

[Aoxomoxoa]

[Krca44]

1 hour ago, Aoxomoxoa said:

poslusacu vase savete,raspitacu se koliko kosta refresh mog pojacala,pa ako cena bude povoljna,uradicu ga

Ako treba da se radi, sto je pitanje za nekog iskusnijeg.  A ono za jeftinija pojacala koja su kvalitetno uradjena , siguran sam da ih ima samo ih treba pronaci,  mislim da nije bas uvek marketing u pitanju nego da smo svi mi zatrpani istim u ogromnim kolicinama a da nam u isto vreme cak i posle mnogo godina nedostaje konkretno iskustvo sa velikim brojem aparata ( ovde izdvajam manjinu koja je imala mogucnosti da promeni veliki broj aparata i da cuje veliki broj sistema ) .

Reprodukcija je bila vrlo dobra s obzirom da su mi utisci jos svezi a sa filterom sjajna,  dakle nema razloga da se posto poto zuri sa promenama, imate sve razloge da uzivate u muzici sa svog sistema i da bez zurbe razmisljate o tome sta bi ste mogli uraditi ako zelite poboljsanje.

[giZ_Mo]

56 minuta ranije, Aoxomoxoa said:

Pojacalo je DIY

Хммм, нешто ми ту не штима за 30W у A класи.