paja959 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Uz tu Ortofon test plocu (Ortofon 002) pripada i jedan booklet,sa objasnjenjima,sta kako se "meri" podesava i "cuje",sta se cuje kad je dobro,kako se cuje kad nije dobro i bla,bla,bla..nije neko sveto pismo,u prosli petak su upravo uz pomoc nje pred nosem podesavali jedan ZYX 1000/Xerxes 20/Artemiz 2-ov antiskejting...na uvo,nista drugo..istu praksu primenjuju i ostali ovdasnji gurui,video sam jos drugu dvojicu,i nisam cuo jos od nikoga da je video nekod od njih da je pod miskom nosio laptop,snimao neki trek,radio analizu toga,pa ponovo podesavao antiskejting prilikom podesavanja gramofona kod njega...stoji da nosaju sa sobom vise "test ploca" ali manje vise sve se vrti oko istog... Pojma nemam koja je tehnika "rezanja" tih ploca,cinjenica je,da su neke od njih dosta skupe.. Videcu mozda uzajmim ponovo tu Ortofonovu,pa fotokopiram taj "vodic".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bujodrag Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 A gde može da se nadje/kupi ta Ortofon test ploÄa? Na onoj sirotoj PGP-ovoj Test ploÄi postoji deo za testiranje frek. opsega levog i desnog kanala, kao i urezan mono signal.Ako se i levi i desni kanal podjednako Äuju i ako je mono signal na sredini, je l' te, zvuÄne slike, to bi indiciralo da je antiskejting dobro podeÅ¡en. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
空也 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Dalje, sto se tice vrhova igle, stvar je upravo obrnuta, kod sfericnih igala trenje je vece, bas zbog manje dodirne povrsine. Ako su lagali mene ja lazem vas. U ovom odlicnom PDF-u, grafikon i tekst na trecoj strani kazu da je "skating" sila veca kod elipitcne igle? http://www.audiomods...katingforce.PDF Inace PDF je stvarno super, sve sto se zeleli i niste zeleli da znate o antiskejtingu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ako ću da budem iskren, mene viÅ¡e interesuje ona famozna "Hi-Fi News" test ploÄa, Äisto da vidim kako se moje zvuÄnice ponaÅ¡aju kada naiÄ‘u na komplikovanije delove brazdi (tracking ability), a anti-skating podesim tako Å¡to uzmem neku ploÄu kod koje znam da na nekim mestima preskaÄe, pa ga podesim tako da igla proÄ‘e bez preskakanja. Za divno Äudo, vrednost je 0.5 na svim mojim gramofonima, pri VTF-u u rasponu od 1.25 do 2.0 grama (u zavisnosti od zvuÄnice). A jednom sam anti-skating(e) podesio koristeći taze PGP-ovu test ploÄu, i sve igle su posle toga preskakale na onim mestima. Toliko (Å¡to se mene tiÄe) o podeÅ¡avanju anti-skatinga koristeći test ploÄe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ako ću da budem iskren, mene viÅ¡e interesuje ona famozna "Hi-Fi News" test ploÄa, Äisto da vidim kako se moje zvuÄnice ponaÅ¡aju kada naiÄ‘u na komplikovanije delove brazdi (tracking ability), a anti-skating podesim tako Å¡to uzmem neku ploÄu kod koje znam da na nekim mestima preskaÄe, pa ga podesim tako da igla proÄ‘e bez preskakanja. Za divno Äudo, vrednost je 0.5 na svim mojim gramofonima, pri VTF-u u rasponu od 1.25 do 2.0 grama (u zavisnosti od zvuÄnice). A jednom sam anti-skating(e) podesio koristeći taze PGP-ovu test ploÄu, i sve igle su posle toga preskakale na onim mestima. Toliko (Å¡to se mene tiÄe) o podeÅ¡avanju anti-skatinga koristeći test ploÄe... Ja sam moju ovdje narucio. Nije ni tako skupa kad se poredi sa 180g izdanjima. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbrujic Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ako ću da budem iskren, mene viÅ¡e interesuje ona famozna "Hi-Fi News" test ploÄa, Äisto da vidim kako se moje zvuÄnice ponaÅ¡aju kada naiÄ‘u na komplikovanije delove brazdi (tracking ability), a anti-skating podesim tako Å¡to uzmem neku ploÄu kod koje znam da na nekim mestima preskaÄe, pa ga podesim tako da igla proÄ‘e bez preskakanja. Ne oÄekuj nikakva Äuda ni od ove test ploÄe. ÄŒak nije ni centrisana dobro. Ali, poÅ¡to je sad duplo skuplja (ja je svojevremeno kupih za $25), možda su rupu probuÅ¡ili na pravom mestu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFi User Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Imam ja Hi-Fi News test plocu. Ploca omogucava fina podesavanja i, koliko ja znam, jedina je koja ima i test rezonance igle/rucke. Ima i jedan manji prazni deo, koji moze da se koristi za podesavanje anti-skatinga. Ja sam iskoristio to podesavanje "na prazno" kao polaznu tacku, zatim dodao jos malo sile i to je to. Inace, uz plocu stizu detaljna uputstva i protraktor. Moj primerak je centriran dobro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ali, pošto je sad duplo skuplja (ja je svojevremeno kupih za $25), možda su rupu probušili na pravom mestu. Dobar sarkazam!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja959 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 A gde može da se nadje/kupi ta Ortofon test ploÄa? pa sad vec iskljucivo second-hand,to se moglo kupiti tamo '80 kod Ortofon dealera,0001 i 0003 su samo sa muzikom,0002 je jedna strana test,druga isto muzika...+ edit i na toj 0002 ima rezonantnih testova... trenutno na ebay-u ima jedna za 275 eura,i jedna za nekih cca 80 eura ..bolje nadji kod nekog primerak pa uzajmi... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbrujic Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Nije loše da se i ovi skenovi nađu u svesci... Hi-Fi News Analog Test LP Back cover: Insert: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Nije loše da se i ovi skenovi nađu u svesci... Hi-Fi News Analog Test LP Back cover: Insert: Probaj ponovo, jer na kraju svakog linka imaš jedno "/" viška pa javlja: 404 Not Found nginx/0.7.64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bujodrag Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ako su lagali mene ja lazem vas. U ovom odlicnom PDF-u, grafikon i tekst na trecoj strani kazu da je "skating" sila veca kod elipitcne igle? http://www.audiomods...katingforce.PDF Inace PDF je stvarno super, sve sto se zeleli i niste zeleli da znate o antiskejtingu. Kuja, sjajan tekst, zaista. No, ovaj antiscating phenomena me stvarno oduÅ¡evljava.Ne moÅ¡' ga uhvatiti ni za glavu ni za rep.Pritisak je svakako obrnuto proporcionalan dodirnoj povrÅ¡ini i sigurno je da utiÄe na stvaranje skejting sile, ali, avaj, navedena merenja pokazuju je, izgleda, taj uticaj zanemarljiv. Onda bi valjalo reÅ¡iti pitanje:Koja igla ima veću dodirnu povrÅ¡inu, 0,7 sferiÄna ili 0,35x0,7 eliptiÄna.Uzima se da eliptiÄna ima veću dodirnu povrÅ¡inu, ali, da li je tako?EliptiÄna je "tanja" pa će lakÅ¡e isÄitati sitnije modulacije.Da li je to sve? Odnosno, iz teksta mi nije jasno zaÅ¡to je skejting sila jaÄa kod eliptiÄne igle. U tekstu kažu da su dobijali znatno veći "spread" u merenjima kad su tracking force povećavali preko 1,5 grama.Interesantno. Takodje, u zakljuÄku, napominju da merenja elitiÄne igle na glatkom vinilu mogu biti "very misleading" kad je u pitanju svirajuća povrÅ¡ina ploÄe. Aman, pa baÅ¡ to nam treba, ko joÅ¡ koristi sferiÄnu iglu. I, na kraju, savetuju da se pridržavamo uputstva proizvodjaÄa. Vertical tracking force za moju Salsu je 2,2 grama. Å ta da radim? Å ta da radim? AAAAAAAA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bujodrag Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 pa sad vec iskljucivo second-hand,to se moglo kupiti tamo '80 kod Ortofon dealera,0001 i 0003 su samo sa muzikom,0002 je jedna strana test,druga isto muzika...+ edit i na toj 0002 ima rezonantnih testova... trenutno na ebay-u ima jedna za 275 eura,i jedna za nekih cca 80 eura ..bolje nadji kod nekog primerak pa uzajmi... E, ako ovaj prvi sa ebay-a ima nekih desetak komada, ja bih bio zainetresovan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Onda bi valjalo reÅ¡iti pitanje:Koja igla ima veću dodirnu povrÅ¡inu, 0,7 sferiÄna ili 0,35x0,7 eliptiÄna.Uzima se da eliptiÄna ima veću dodirnu povrÅ¡inu, ali, da li je tako?EliptiÄna je "tanja" pa će lakÅ¡e isÄitati sitnije modulacije.Da li je to sve? Odnosno, iz teksta mi nije jasno zaÅ¡to je skejting sila jaÄa kod eliptiÄne igle. EliptiÄna igla uvek ima veću (vertikalno orijentisanu) dodirnu povrÅ¡inu od sferiÄne, a skating je veći baÅ¡ zbog te veće dodirne povrÅ¡ine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Jedan od primitivnih ali i efikasnih nacina je da gledas iglu sa "glave" sa povecalom dok svira i pazis da li je igla noramalna na brazdu ili se krivi na jednu ili drugu stranu. Ako se krivi, podesavaj antiskatning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bujodrag Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Jedan od primitivnih ali i efikasnih nacina je da gledas iglu sa "glave" sa povecalom dok svira i pazis da li je igla noramalna na brazdu ili se krivi na jednu ili drugu stranu. Ako se krivi, podesavaj antiskatning. To je moglo kod Audiotechnica AT440 zvuÄnice, kod koje se, zbog visoke komplijanse, odmah vidi da l' naginje levo ili desno, kod Ortofon Salse se to ne vidi, sem za krajnje iznose antiskejting kompenzacije. @Froggy, hvala.Upravo i sam tražim baÅ¡ tu sliku.SaÄuvao sam je na hard da bih mogao lakÅ¡e da je nadjem kad mi zatreba, ali..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbrujic Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Opet ste me navukli da se igram sa skejtingom... i s HFN Test ploÄom (trake 6 do 9). 1. Technics 1210 sa Denon HOMC zvuÄnicom prolazi traku 9 na svim podeÅ¡avanjima AS. Za ekstremno malu (0) vrednost Äuju se neki "artefakti" pri reprodukciji. Za trake 6 i 7 nisam uspeo da Äujem nikakvu promenu prilikom promene ASa. Na traci 8, opet za nulu, mislim da Äujem joÅ¡ neke zvuke u pozadini. 2. Technics 1210 sa Ortofon OM zvuÄnicom: praktiÄno isto kao i 1., samo su sada "artefakti" na traci 9 izraženiji na maksimalnoj vrednosti ASa (ima ih i na minimalnoj). TakoÄ‘e, Äuje se (jasnije nego malopre) neÅ¡to i na traci 8 kod koje je AS na maksimumu. 3. Thorens sa TP90 ruÄkom i Ortofon Rondo MC zvuÄnicom: traka 8 je skroz upotrebljiva i daje priliÄno usku (+/-1) zonu bez dodatnih zvukova. MeÄ‘utim, traku 9 poÄne i celu je preskoÄi, ma kako da je AS podeÅ¡en. Ne znam Å¡ta da mislim o ovome. Ideje? Možda 1210 i nije bila najbolja maÅ¡ina za donoÅ¡enje suda o ASu EDIT: Ponovljeni test, nakon Å¡to sam vratio Denona na Technicsa daje potpuno drugaÄije rezultate. Sad ne uspevam traku 9 da osluÅ¡am ni tamo, ni na jednoj poziciji ASa. Odustajem od ASa. Trajno. Edited January 21, 2012 by zbrujic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
空也 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Pritisak je svakako obrnuto proporcionalan dodirnoj povrÅ¡ini i sigurno je da utiÄe na stvaranje skejting sile, ali, avaj, navedena merenja pokazuju je, izgleda, taj uticaj zanemarljiv. .... ....iz teksta mi nije jasno zaÅ¡to je skejting sila jaÄa kod eliptiÄne igle. Pritisak jeste obrnuto proporcionalan dodirnoj povrÅ¡ini, ali pritisak je samo jedan od faktora koji uticu na trenje. Pazi, u idealnim uslovima (dve tvrde, idealno glatke i ravne povrsine), teorija kaze da trenje u stvari ne bi trebalo da zavisi od povrsine naleganja, ... ...ali i da moze zavisiti kada drugi faktori udju u igru! . U dole postavljenom tekstu obratiti paznju na boldovane delove, pogotovu na boldovani crveni deo, koji najvise odgovara vinilu koji se prilikom prolaska igle kroz brazde (tako kazu) dodatno zagreva i malo razmeksava, tako da se zidovi brazdi u trenutku deformisu ali se hladjenjem vracaju u prvobitni oblik. The standard friction equation is the relationship between the resistive force of sliding friction for hard surfaces, the normal force pushing the two surfaces together and the coefficient of friction number for the two surfaces. When applied to sliding friction of hard surfaces, the equation implies that friction is independent of the area of the surfaces in contact. This equation can also apply to soft surfaces, rolling friction and fluid friction, but the coefficient of friction may depend on area, shape and viscosity factors. The classical approximation of the force of friction between two solid surfaces is known as Coulomb friction, named after Charles-Augustin de Coulomb. In this equation: Ff is less than or equal to μN, where μ is the coefficient of friction, which is an empirical property of the contacting materials, N is the normal force exerted between the surfaces, and Ff is either the force exerted by friction, or, in the case of equality, the maximum possible magnitude of this force. This equation applies to both static and kinetic sliding friction. Static friction is the friction before an object starts to slide. Kinetic friction is the friction when the object is actually moving or sliding. Static friction and kinetic friction have different coefficient of friction values. An interesting result of this equation is that in the case of sliding friction of hard surfaces, the friction is independent of the area of the surfaces. In other words, it is just as difficult to move a 1 square-cm object as a 1 square-meter object, if they both are pressed to the surface with the same amount of force. This is not intuitive. You would think that there is more friction when the surfaces are larger, but the friction equation states otherwise. You can verify this fact with experiments. In situations where the surfaces deform or there is molecular adhesion, the friction is not independent of the areas in contact. In these cases surface area usually comes into play. This is also true for rolling and fluid friction. When solid surfaces are soft and deform or when one material is a fluid, the shape of the solid object may be a factor. Although the standard friction equation still holds, the coefficient of friction may have area, shape and other factors included in it. For surfaces in relative motion, μ is the coefficient of kinetic friction (see below), the Coulomb friction is equal to Ff, and the frictional force on each surface is exerted in the direction opposite to its motion relative to the other surface. For surfaces at rest relative to each other, μ is the coefficient of static friction (generally larger than its kinetic counterpart), the Coulomb friction may take any value from zero up to Ff, and the direction of the frictional force on a surface is opposite to the motion that surface would experience in the absence of friction. Thus, in the static case, the frictional force is exactly what it must be in order to prevent motion between the surfaces; it balances the net force tending to cause such motion. In this case, rather than providing an estimate of the actual frictional force, the Coulomb approximation provides a threshold value for this force, above which sliding would commence. This approximation mathematically follows from the assumptions that surfaces are in atomically close contact only over a small fraction of their overall area, that this contact area is proportional to the normal force (until saturation, which takes place when all area is in atomic contact), and that frictional force is proportional to contact area. Such reasoning aside, however, the approximation is fundamentally an empirical construction. Rather than a physical law, it is a rule of thumb describing the approximate outcome of an extremely complicated physical interaction. The strength of the approximation is its simplicity and versatility--though in general the relationship between normal force and frictional force is not exactly linear (and so the frictional force is not entirely independent of the contact area of the surfaces), the Coulomb approximation is an adequate representation of friction for the analysis of many physical systems. The standard friction equation is the relationship between the resistive force of sliding friction for hard surfaces, the normal force and the coefficient of friction for the two surfaces. When applied to sliding friction of hard surfaces, the equation implies that friction is independent of the area of the surfaces in contact. This equation can also apply to soft surfaces, rolling friction and fluid friction, but the coefficient of friction may depend on other factors. Source(s): Tipler, Paul (1998). Physics for Scientists and Engineers: Vol. 1, 4th ed., W. H. Freeman. ISBN 1-57259-492-6 Ja kada vozim bicikl na asfaltu, lakse mi je da okrecem pedale i idem mnogo brze sa tankim gumama nego sa shirokim. Napumpane su jednako tvrdo i i jedne i druge su slik (bez krampona), ali shiroke gume nalezu vecom povrsinom na podlogu, sto pretpostavljam daje vece trenje koje me usporava i otezava okretanje pedala. Da li to ima ikakve veze sa dijamantskom iglom u brazdi od vinila, nemam pojma. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 3. Thorens sa TP90 ruÄkom i Ortofon Rondo MC zvuÄnicom: traka 8 je skroz upotrebljiva i daje priliÄno usku (+/-1) zonu bez dodatnih zvukova. MeÄ‘utim, traku 9 poÄne i celu je preskoÄi, ma kako da je AS podeÅ¡en. Ne znam Å¡ta da mislim o ovome. Ideje? Možda 1210 i nije bila najbolja maÅ¡ina za donoÅ¡enje suda o ASu EDIT: Ponovljeni test, nakon Å¡to sam vratio Denona na Technicsa daje potpuno drugaÄije rezultate. Sad ne uspevam traku 9 da osluÅ¡am ni tamo, ni na jednoj poziciji ASa. Odustajem od ASa. Trajno. Jedan odgovor koji sigurno znaÅ¡: tracking... Uzgred, one zvukove Å¡to ÄujeÅ¡ u pozadini - kakvi su? Da nije preslikavanje? Npr. PGPova test ploÄa je bila cela tako snimljena, ko da su je pravili u Diskosu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScepanBG Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 http://www.gramofoni.com/polovnigram.html Evo malo o polovnim gramofonima,mada na sajtu ima dosta toga zanimljivog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sondek Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 http://www.gramofoni...olovnigram.html Evo malo o polovnim gramofonima,mada na sajtu ima dosta toga zanimljivog. hvala Scepo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 dr. za gramofon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nenad Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Michael Fremer-ov portal posvećen vinilu http://www.analogplanet.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbrujic Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Non-Fill http://www.analogpla...-non-fill-looks "Non-fill" refers to a pressing defect that occurs when the molten vinyl does not flow fully to produce a well-formed groove. It occurs most often on a 180g record's outer edge and is caused by the vinyl's beginning to harden prematurely. The sound produced is noise—a "shsssshing" sound that we've all heard too often. This was the problem that plagued Classic's early 200g Quiex SV-P "flat profile" pressings. Eventually the problem was solved. You can see "non-fill" as a "pearl necklace" like effect if you hold in just the right light a record so afflicted. It's difficult to photograph but I think you can catch glimpses of it in the above photograph. If not, think "string of pearls." This shot is of Rush's new album Clockwork Angels sent to me by a reader who was disgusted by the sound quality and wanted my opinion. When I inspected the records I was appalled by the low quality pressing. You could see the "non-fill" and there were the kind of small scratches that indicate poor handling out of the press. Someone just didn't care. But as bad as the physical quality was, the sound was even worse—and this from a band once known for superb sounding records! The sound was flat, dynamically squashed and lacking in anything that might appeal to one's ears. What a disgrace! While Brian Gardner (at Bernie Grundman Mastering) got mastering credit, I doubt the lacquers were cut there and I don't blame Brian for the sonics. I suspect the crimes were committed in the mix before he got to the files. Couple that with the mediocre pressing quality that has all of the "hallmarks" of United Record Pressing in Nashville, and you have one big mess. The only saving grace is that the recording was so squashed, there were no open sonic spaces where you could hear the "shushing" sound of "non-fill." If you're buying used records at a store and can inspect the vinyl, stay away from records exhibiting the "string of pearl" syndrome. Gde se na toj fotki vidi taj "non-fill"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.