Zvucnicki kablovi???

[stex]

Nisam ja nikakva referenca, imam samo skromnog iskustva u servisiranju opreme i mislim da znam kako treba da izgleda dobro napravljen uređaj. U audiju , HIFI-ju se najviše prodaju muda za bubrege. To je samo moje skromno mišljenje.

[ozzy]

OK, sa prodavanjem M za B se apsolutno slažem i u redu da izneseÅ¡ svoj stav ali podsećam na jednostavnu Äinjenicu da su i ova pojaÄala sastavljali neki ljudi koji se ipak duži niz godina bave elektronikom, nisu odžaÄari jel' - i rezultatima svog rada su se za ovih 20-tak godina itekako dokazali - i zvukom i kvalitetom i dugoveÄnošću tih ureÄ‘aja. Ne znam Å¡ta je bitnije od toga? Neko misli da dobro pojaÄalo treba da ima 2 W, nego 2000 W, neko smatra da zvuÄnik mora da ima 27 drajvera i hi-tech skretnicu, nekom drugom je dovoljna horna. Bitan je rezultat kad Äovek zatvori oÄi i sluÅ¡a kako to svira. Bitna je naravno i pouzdanost a ona ovde nije upitna ako se sledi uputstvo proizvoÄ‘aÄa. Neću da merim uspeÅ¡nost projekta time koliko pojaÄalo može da izdrži pod vodom.

[boraomega]

Potpuno razumem sve razloge i protiv-razloge svih drugara ovde, ali verujem da ce te se svi sloziti da je ipak malo neobicno da jedan kvalitetan uredjaj namenjen siroj publici bude tako iskljuciv po pitanju periferije oko njega. Sa stanovista konstruktora i dizajnera to mi je pomalo neozbiljno (bez namere da i truncicu omalovazim ta poznata stara imena iz audio sveta!). To bi mi bilo isto kao da kazes da si nasao vrhunske cigarete neverovatne arome ali samo ako se pripale sa Ronson upaljacem, a ako probas da ih zapalis sa necim drugim deluju k'o krdza!? Kada se dizajnira za strogo poznatu i kasnije nepromenjljivu namenu (sistemi za trajnu ugradnju u studijima i slicno) onda mozes da se igras sa neobicnim i specificno prilagodjenim resenjima, ali kada se tvoj proizvod treba da nadje na polici u prodavnici gde svaki "lampovez" moze da ga kupi i treba kod kuce da ga vezuje ko zna sa cime, e onda bi trebalo da se drugacije razmislja. Pa cak i kad je proizvod za audiofilski krug korisnika, ipak je malo bezobrazno pa i neodgovorno da dizajnom ogranicavas sta na njega smes a sta ne smes da prikljucis. To je MOJE misljenje... svakako drugi se ne moraju sloziti.

[matan]

@Simke

Imas na ako se ne varam sajtu http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm da se u slucaju pletenica sa velikom kapacitivnoscu moze redno staviti kondezator i otpornik ne bi li smanjio kapacitivnost, e sad trebalo bi da znas red velicine kapacitovnosti tvojih kablova da bi znao sta zelis da dobijes. Inace, pletenice kablova sa teflonskom izolacijom imaju znacajno manju kapacitivnost zbog manje dielektricne konstantne teflona od ostalih materijala. Evo ti upustvo za kondezator sa Jonovog ili vec nekog drugog sajta, ne secam se odakle sam skinuo...

It sounds like the amp is oscillating due to the capacitive load from the CAT5. The full 27 pair version ChrisVH recommends is highly capacitive, about 450-600 pF per foot, with a 10 foot run ending up at about 5000 pF. That's enough to send some amps into oscillations. Double up for bi-wiring, and this can cause even more amps to loose it.

Them answer is the use of a Zobel network to control the impedance the amp/cable combo sees. Many speakers go higher in Z in the HF range, and this can cause the cable to become unloaded at the HF's. Place a a resistor and cap in series, this string across the speaker load. An non-inductive R of about 10-8 ohms, and a high quality non-inductive cap of about 0.27 to 0.1 uF should be about right. One network for each channel.

If the problem persists, then use of a seocnd network right at the amp terminals will sometimes do the trick.

Use only very high quality parts, as they can have an adverse sonic effect, although to test the effectiveness, use of lower quality parts, as long as they are non-inductive, will tell you if it will work or not. Jon Risch]

[lad that worked for you. Many folks have tried other high capacitance cables ( especially Goertz ) and not liked the results simply because they didn't use Zobel's. That is why i ALWAYS stress that a Zobel should be used with ANY high capacitance speaker cable. I would consider anything higher in capacitance than Kimber 8PR / 8VS / 8TC a candidate for a Zobel. Some amps might even work better with a Zobel when using these Kimber's and / or something similar. One should not need a Zobel with a cable that is relatively low in capacitance i.e. Nordost, any of the Monster's, etc...

As to your question, an inductive resistor is one that is typically wire wound and of "good size". Personally, i've used Mills non-inductive 12 watt resistors and Axon caps. The high voltage Axon's have a jacket on the leads, making them nicer to work with in terms of not having to protect the exposed conductors. For those that don't know this, Axon's are Solen's are SCR's ( if ya know what i mean ). Axon's also make use of copper leads on the higher voltage caps whereas none of the Solen's or SCR's do this ( as far as i know ). You might also want to see if you can find some "audio grade" Ohmite resistors as these are supposed to be superior to the Mills. Use something that is capable of at least a couple of watts.

As a side note and what i do to make connecting these easy, i install the Zobel network into banana plugs. This allows me to use spades or bare wire in the "clamp" section of binding posts and just slip the Zobel's in via the banana plugs. Obviously, one would want to assure a good connection between leads from the cap and resistor to the bananas and from the bananas to the binding posts, so don't skimp here. As such, solder the connections from the cap and resistor to the bananas and use some cheap but effective bananas in terms of a snug fit. If you wanted to go overkill, you could use locking bananas, since you don't have to worry about these vibrating out or being knocked out by accident. After all, your amp could count on this connection for survival. Sean

PS... Keep the leads as short as possible on the cap and resistor. Then again, one must realize that you have to spread out the connections to reach the binding posts. Therefore, keep things reasonable and don't trim them exactly to fit. After all, you may get new speakers sometime in the future and want to use this cable. If the binding posts are spaced a bit further apart, you would have to add length to the leads, making for a much messier connection. As such, leave yourself a small but reasonable amount of flexible lead while keeping them as short as possible.]

[Mettal]

To se kratko zove lose pojacalo. E sad, da li ce se iza dizajna "nasloniti" neki grozan autoritet, i "potrositi" malo kredita, to je druga stvar.

A mali audiofili, pa gde smeju da pomisle nesto drugacije od takvih velicina.

Ocigledno dizajn pojacala ima gadan promasaj, neki od kompromisa su lose odradjeni, ali mozda se nesto "dobilo" na drugoj strani, mada mi je tesko da zamislim, da se bas neki kapacitet "gadja" sa kapacitetom kablova, i izaziva neke samooscilacije, verovatno blizu rf-a..

To je cist polovican inzenjerski rad..a ponasanje pojacala moze da dovede u pitanje i cistocu zvucne slike..sklono je oversutovima, ocigledno..

Poz.

[ozzy]

Ima par narodnih koje bi dobro poslužile u ovom trenutku ali su sve malo priproste. NabeÄ‘ujete Äoveka da je pojaÄalo koje je kupio Ä‘ubre, svi mnogo znate o tome kako se Å¡ta pravi i osećate se pozvanima da sudite o tome Å¡ta su, kako i zaÅ¡to radili ljudi mnogo većeg autoriteta. Ja kao da priÄam na Å¡panskom. Ako stavite 3 pojaÄala jedno pored drugog i 2 zvuÄe kao mrtva baba a treće istresa iz gaća za koje će te se opredeliti? Da li će vas sputati Äinjenica da u napomeni za treće stoji da se ne treba iživljavati sa kablovima? Možda treba ostatak života protraćiti na pokuÅ¡aje da se iz prva dva izvuÄe koja mrvica entuzijazma, možda treba potroÅ¡iti hiljade eura ili odrati prste na kablove, jer zaboga dobar inžinjering (ko da se pravi za vojsku a ne za uživanje u muzici) to dozvoljava. Sit sam se nasluÅ¡ao 30 kg teÅ¡kih pojaÄala sa 5000 elemenata koji na kraju jednaÄine treba da daju dobar zvuk a dobije se suÅ¡ta suprotnost - isprano, dosadno, artificijalno, bljak. Kompromis mora negde da padne, pogotovo u klasi o kojoj govorimo. Naim proizvodi svoj speaker kabl već decenijama u manje-viÅ¡e neizmenjenom obliku i insistira na tome da se uz njihove ureÄ‘aje koristi iskljuÄivo ovaj kabl. Nije preterano skup, Äak bi se moglo reći da je i jeftin. Znate li koliko ljudi je probalo da na Naim kaÄi sve i svaÅ¡ta, i jeftinije i skuplje, i ovakve i onakve konstrukcije samo da bi se na kraju ipak vratili na Naimov original kabl, koji proizvoÄ‘aÄ praktiÄno smatra integralnim delom pojaÄala. I to svira za padanje u nesvest. Ali ovo je loÅ¡ inžinjering i kod vas ne prolazi? Bravo i svaka vam Äast! I GIVE UP.

[Borko_KA]

VOLIMO OVO-ONO OCI NAM SE CAKLE !!!

[stex]

U priÄu o ultraskupim kablovima ne verujem.

[simke]

@Simke

Imas na ako se ne varam sajtu http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm da se u slucaju pletenica sa velikom kapacitivnoscu moze redno staviti kondezator i otpornik ne bi li smanjio kapacitivnost, e sad trebalo bi da znas red velicine kapacitovnosti tvojih kablova da bi znao sta zelis da dobijes. Inace, pletenice kablova sa teflonskom izolacijom imaju znacajno manju kapacitivnost zbog manje dielektricne konstantne teflona od ostalih materijala. Evo ti upustvo za kondezator sa Jonovog ili vec nekog drugog sajta, ne secam se odakle sam skinuo...

It sounds like the amp is oscillating due to the capacitive load from the CAT5. The full 27 pair version ChrisVH recommends is highly capacitive, about 450-600 pF per foot, with a 10 foot run ending up at about 5000 pF. That's enough to send some amps into oscillations. Double up for bi-wiring, and this can cause even more amps to loose it.

Them answer is the use of a Zobel network to control the impedance the amp/cable combo sees. Many speakers go higher in Z in the HF range, and this can cause the cable to become unloaded at the HF's. Place a a resistor and cap in series, this string across the speaker load. An non-inductive R of about 10-8 ohms, and a high quality non-inductive cap of about 0.27 to 0.1 uF should be about right. One network for each channel.

If the problem persists, then use of a seocnd network right at the amp terminals will sometimes do the trick.

Use only very high quality parts, as they can have an adverse sonic effect, although to test the effectiveness, use of lower quality parts, as long as they are non-inductive, will tell you if it will work or not. Jon Risch]

[lad that worked for you. Many folks have tried other high capacitance cables ( especially Goertz ) and not liked the results simply because they didn't use Zobel's. That is why i ALWAYS stress that a Zobel should be used with ANY high capacitance speaker cable. I would consider anything higher in capacitance than Kimber 8PR / 8VS / 8TC a candidate for a Zobel. Some amps might even work better with a Zobel when using these Kimber's and / or something similar. One should not need a Zobel with a cable that is relatively low in capacitance i.e. Nordost, any of the Monster's, etc...

As to your question, an inductive resistor is one that is typically wire wound and of "good size". Personally, i've used Mills non-inductive 12 watt resistors and Axon caps. The high voltage Axon's have a jacket on the leads, making them nicer to work with in terms of not having to protect the exposed conductors. For those that don't know this, Axon's are Solen's are SCR's ( if ya know what i mean ). Axon's also make use of copper leads on the higher voltage caps whereas none of the Solen's or SCR's do this ( as far as i know ). You might also want to see if you can find some "audio grade" Ohmite resistors as these are supposed to be superior to the Mills. Use something that is capable of at least a couple of watts.

As a side note and what i do to make connecting these easy, i install the Zobel network into banana plugs. This allows me to use spades or bare wire in the "clamp" section of binding posts and just slip the Zobel's in via the banana plugs. Obviously, one would want to assure a good connection between leads from the cap and resistor to the bananas and from the bananas to the binding posts, so don't skimp here. As such, solder the connections from the cap and resistor to the bananas and use some cheap but effective bananas in terms of a snug fit. If you wanted to go overkill, you could use locking bananas, since you don't have to worry about these vibrating out or being knocked out by accident. After all, your amp could count on this connection for survival. Sean

PS... Keep the leads as short as possible on the cap and resistor. Then again, one must realize that you have to spread out the connections to reach the binding posts. Therefore, keep things reasonable and don't trim them exactly to fit. After all, you may get new speakers sometime in the future and want to use this cable. If the binding posts are spaced a bit further apart, you would have to add length to the leads, making for a much messier connection. As such, leave yourself a small but reasonable amount of flexible lead while keeping them as short as possible.]

[simke]

Ima par narodnih koje bi dobro poslužile u ovom trenutku ali su sve malo priproste. NabeÄ‘ujete Äoveka da je pojaÄalo koje je kupio Ä‘ubre, svi mnogo znate o tome kako se Å¡ta pravi i osećate se pozvanima da sudite o tome Å¡ta su, kako i zaÅ¡to radili ljudi mnogo većeg autoriteta. Ja kao da priÄam na Å¡panskom. Ako stavite 3 pojaÄala jedno pored drugog i 2 zvuÄe kao mrtva baba a treće istresa iz gaća za koje će te se opredeliti? Da li će vas sputati Äinjenica da u napomeni za treće stoji da se ne treba iživljavati sa kablovima? Možda treba ostatak života protraćiti na pokuÅ¡aje da se iz prva dva izvuÄe koja mrvica entuzijazma, možda treba potroÅ¡iti hiljade eura ili odrati prste na kablove, jer zaboga dobar inžinjering (ko da se pravi za vojsku a ne za uživanje u muzici) to dozvoljava. Sit sam se nasluÅ¡ao 30 kg teÅ¡kih pojaÄala sa 5000 elemenata koji na kraju jednaÄine treba da daju dobar zvuk a dobije se suÅ¡ta suprotnost - isprano, dosadno, artificijalno, bljak. Kompromis mora negde da padne, pogotovo u klasi o kojoj govorimo. Naim proizvodi svoj speaker kabl već decenijama u manje-viÅ¡e neizmenjenom obliku i insistira na tome da se uz njihove ureÄ‘aje koristi iskljuÄivo ovaj kabl. Nije preterano skup, Äak bi se moglo reći da je i jeftin. Znate li koliko ljudi je probalo da na Naim kaÄi sve i svaÅ¡ta, i jeftinije i skuplje, i ovakve i onakve konstrukcije samo da bi se na kraju ipak vratili na Naimov original kabl, koji proizvoÄ‘aÄ praktiÄno smatra integralnim delom pojaÄala. I to svira za padanje u nesvest. Ali ovo je loÅ¡ inžinjering i kod vas ne prolazi? Bravo i svaka vam Äast! I GIVE UP.