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Čišćenje ploča


zbrujic

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Pravio sam eksperimente sa WD40 koji svakako ostavlja iza sebe masni sloj, ma koliko se dobro isušivalo posle čiščenja, ali nije se pokazalo škodljivo vinilu.

Reprodukcija nakon 6meseci, 12, i više nisu pokazale baš nikakve tragove nagriženosti vinila ili povećanog površinskog šuma. Zapravo nivo površinskog šuma i pucketanja je izrazito bio smanjen.

Micelarna voda takođe ostavlja neki "masni" negujući sloj, pa ću najpre ove koje sam WD-om čistio očistiti micelarnom vodom i proveriti kako se ponašaju.

Za ove probe sa WD-om sam koristio baš matore i islušane ploče Demisa Rusosa i rezultati su bili izvanredni. Nisam primenjivao na dobro očuvane vinile.

Micelanu ću prvo probati na WD-ovanom Demisu, pa i na nekoj ne zanimljivoj, ali očuvanoj ploči da utvrdim pravi učinak na čisti Vinil / Micelar  susret.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Probao sam da ocistim stare ploce sundjerom mlakom vodom i malo deterdzenta za sudove, potom sam ih posusio krpom i fenom, pa sam ih premazao vivanco cleaning liquid koji sam kupio u descop shopu kod platoa. Naravno i ocistio cetkom koju sam dobio uz set. Zadovoljan sam ali i dalje suste, zanima me dal je taj set dobar za ciscenje, jel ga vec neko koristio?

Screenshot_20210915-133208_Chrome.jpg

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On 7.9.2021. at 8:56, Father said:

Da li je neko probao Micelarnu vodu?

 

"Ime je dobila po  malenim uljastim molekulima (micelama) koji se dobijaju iz prirodnih šećera  Jedan kraj ovih molekula je hidrofilni i privlači vodu dok je drugi  lipofilni tj. privlači ulja i masne čestice i rastvara ih.

Micelarna voda je posebna po tome što u sebi spaja svežinu čiste vode ( ne sadrži kalcijum, magnezijum i katjone metala ) i efikasnost ulja za skidanje šminke.  Ujedinjeni u jedan proizvod ova dva sastojka omogućavaju otklanjanje masnoća pomešanih sa nečistoćama  i temeljno brisanje čak i vodootporne šminke. Ne iritira kožu i nije potrebno ispirati je."

Pitaj ženu.:rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Marko Pele said:

Probao sam da ocistim stare ploce sundjerom mlakom vodom i malo deterdzenta za sudove, potom sam ih posusio krpom i fenom, pa sam ih premazao vivanco cleaning liquid koji sam kupio u descop shopu kod platoa. Naravno i ocistio cetkom koju sam dobio uz set. Zadovoljan sam ali i dalje suste, zanima me dal je taj set dobar za ciscenje, jel ga vec neko koristio?

Screenshot_20210915-133208_Chrome.jpg

Ovaj set je OK za održavanje novih vinila ili vinila u baš dobrom stanju.

Četka sasvim solidno radi posao skidanja prašine pre puštanja (ima i boljih) a sa druge strane ima plišano jastuče koje može da pripomogne ako se neke trunčice opiru vlaknima.

Tečnost (barem meni) služi da sklonim neke tragove prstiju ili mrljice ako ih uočim tokom rukovanja, da ne zapeknu i za to odlično radi posao. Dva, tri prskanja po ploči i sve bude cakum pakum.

Ono što lično radim je da posle čišćenja sa sastavom ne stavljam ploču na gramofon još jedno 10-15 minuta, da budem siguran da se sve osušilo (mada nije neko natapanje kod nanošenja, više "orošavanje").

Zamerka mi je što na bočici ne piše sastav, pa ostaje da im veruješ da je u najboljem interesu očuvanja vinila.

 

Set sam dobio kao poklon za rođendan a poklonu se u zube ne gleda :D

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Šteta je da ovaj tekst ne bude i kod nas na forumu (sa v-engine): 

It's wintertime again and we are seeing many threads on issues with static so I decided to re-post a blog entry I wrote on the subject (with some updates). Most old timers here know this info and have their own methods of dealing with things, but I thought I'd throw my $0.02 in (again) for the sake of discussion:

Where does static charge come from?

All matter is made of atoms. Atoms have a nucleus of positive change surrounded by electrons with negative charge. Loosely held electrons can transfer from one material to another, creating materials with opposite net charges. The ability of a material to surrender its electrons or absorb excess electrons is a function of its conductivity. Good conductors like copper have a rigid molecular construction that doesn’t allow its electrons to move about freely. Non-conductive materials (insulators) like plastics and glass ceramics are easily disrupted and take on a charge with minimal friction, heat, or pressure. Some materials tend to give up electrons and become positively charged while others tend to collect electrons and become negatively charged. The comparative tendency of a material to charge positive or negative is represented in the “Triboelectric Series”. If you look up one of these charts, you will see PVC and related polymers like to take on a negative charge. So when a vinyl record becomes in contact with, then is separated from, a material like a paper sleeve, it can become negatively charged. Without getting into physics and Coulomb’s Law, suffice it to say that nature likes to balance charges so positively charged particles like dust are attracted to this negatively charged insulator. Hence, you end up with a dirty record with non-structural audible deficiencies.

How does one minimize static issues?

Handling is very important.* The surface area of contact, pressure, and speed of separation affect the amount of charge transferred. Hence, it is recommended that records are removed slowly from sleeves and sleeves of a neutral insulating material (polyethylene or polypropylene but NOT PVC) are used. Sometimes these sleeves contain or are treated with antistatic agents (discussed below).

One can also increase the charge on a record chemically, by using the wrong cleaning agent (a negatively charged detergent or acid for example). This is why most preservationists (e.g. Library of Congress) recommend non-ionic detergents for cleaning records and frown upon SDS/SLS containing dish soaps which leave negative charges behind. How a record is dried after rinsing can also have an effect. Wiping with a cloth can transfer charge for example.

Simply putting a charged vinyl record on a grounded turntable will not dissipate the charge. The record (a PVC-PVA copolymer) is non-conductive, which is why it holds a static charge. So one option to reduce static charge is to make the record more conductive. Formulators of vinyl compositions have included various compounds in their mixes to deal with charges. For example, carbon blacks are included that help evenly distribute the charges. Positively charged antistat compounds have also been added to vinyl mixes and become incorporated into the pressed record. While these compounds can help with normal handling, there is a limit to how much charge they can neutralize. Furthermore, negatively charged compounds are produced when the vinyl is subjected to heat, UV light, and air pollution. PVC breakdown is autocatalytic: the products (mainly HCl) promote further breakdown (and negatively charged compounds). The vinyl formulations include scavengers and stabilizers to help with this (without them, hot pressing of vinyl would not be feasible) but again, they can become exhausted over time. Hence, additional measures are often necessary to reduce charge build-up on a vinyl record.

Water can be conductive so a well humidified room works to help balance charges within a space. It also reduces the risk of electrostatic discharges (ESD) that can damage equipment.**
One can also rinse their “charged up” records with water, which efficiently dissipates the charge. Unfortunately, the best rinses leave no audible residue so distilled or deionized water is required. As the conductivity of water is directly related to the amount of ions in solution, these types of water preparations have no lasting effect after the record is dried.

One can wipe the record surface with something conductive. This is how most antistatic brushes work as carbon fiber is electrically conductive. Hair is on the positive side of the Tribolelectric series so some recommend natural (e.g. horsehair) fiber brushes. Some brushes contain radioisotopes (mainly Polonium 210) that emit alpha particles (positively charged helium atoms) that ionize oxygen and nitrogen atoms in air to balance charges. Polonium brushes aren’t cheap and they need to be replaced annually as the isotope decays but in the right hands they can be effective. High voltage ionizers like the handheld Zerostat or desktop emitter devices work similarly through air, but can be difficult to get consistent results in practice or are rather cumbersome. Either way, brushes and ionizers are transient solutions since they only balance charges on the record at that very moment: the method often needs to be repeated after the record contacts and is separated from another surface (e.g, each time it is taken out and played).

For a longer-lasting, inexpensive solution, one can treat records with an antistat, in a manner similar to what is done in industrial settings (hospitals, electronic parts manufacturers, flammable liquid handling facilities, etc.) for treating hard surfaces. These solutions have been adapted for home use in products like antistatic sprays, fabric softeners, and hair conditioners. The most common ingredients are quaternary ammonium compounds (“quats”). Typically these are in the form of surfactants containing the positively charged ammonium head group with long carbon chain “tails”. Many commercially sold antistatic record cleaners, groove lubricants, and record conditioners consist of these compounds. Antistatic sprays or sheets made for other household purposes are not recommended for use on vinyl as they can contain additional chemicals that can leave residues or damage your records (e.g. oils or solvent propellents). They are useful for treating carpets, furniture, and cables within the listening space however. You can also easily and cheaply make your own quat antistat solution and there are threads describing this (I adapted the use of Hepastat 256, for example). The quats balance charge and like most detergents, even after rinsing, some molecules are left behind on the surface (presumably via hydrophobic interactions with the carbon tail). This molecular layer is thought to trap water molecules and make the surface more conductive. They also reduce friction as the stylus moves across the record (which is why quats are included in “groove lubricants”). Most quat surfactants have antimicrobial properties, which is another useful property in record cleaning. When used properly, the quats do not form a residue or have any audible effect. In fact, according to patent filings, they have been included as antistats in proprietary vinyl formulations for years. They are also frequently incorporated in “anti-static record sleeves”.

So there really is no excuse to live with excessive static charge on vinyl records. They can be handled, treated, and stored in ways that practically eliminate the issue and allow for a more enjoyable playback experience. Happy, noise free, listening!




*Side note 1: One can measure surface charge with an electrostatic voltmeter. These are routinely used in the printing industry (I got mine from a friend at Xerox). The highest readings I often observe are from brand new records. Clearly there are few static control measures employed in the production/packaging plants.

**Side note 2: Most of the electrostatic discharge shocks you feel (like when rubbing across a carpet and touching a doorknob) are in the 3000-5000V range. No wonder ESD is such an issue in industrial settings.

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17 hours ago, Koumbare said:

Ovaj set je OK za održavanje novih vinila ili vinila u baš dobrom stanju.

Četka sasvim solidno radi posao skidanja prašine pre puštanja (ima i boljih) a sa druge strane ima plišano jastuče koje može da pripomogne ako se neke trunčice opiru vlaknima.

Tečnost (barem meni) služi da sklonim neke tragove prstiju ili mrljice ako ih uočim tokom rukovanja, da ne zapeknu i za to odlično radi posao. Dva, tri prskanja po ploči i sve bude cakum pakum.

Ono što lično radim je da posle čišćenja sa sastavom ne stavljam ploču na gramofon još jedno 10-15 minuta, da budem siguran da se sve osušilo (mada nije neko natapanje kod nanošenja, više "orošavanje").

Zamerka mi je što na bočici ne piše sastav, pa ostaje da im veruješ da je u najboljem interesu očuvanja vinila.

 

Set sam dobio kao poklon za rođendan a poklonu se u zube ne gleda :D

Hvala, jeste realno nije za starije ploce samo lepak pomaze... 

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On 9/15/2021 at 11:38 AM, Marko Pele said:

Probao sam da ocistim stare ploce sundjerom mlakom vodom i malo deterdzenta za sudove, potom sam ih posusio krpom i fenom, pa sam ih premazao vivanco cleaning liquid koji sam kupio u descop shopu kod platoa. Naravno i ocistio cetkom koju sam dobio uz set. Zadovoljan sam ali i dalje suste, zanima me dal je taj set dobar za ciscenje, jel ga vec neko koristio?

Screenshot_20210915-133208_Chrome.jpg

Aко је плоча изгребана, стање можеш да побољшаш, али никада и ни са чим не могу плоче да не шуште, јер је у питању физичко оштећење пластике.

 Бољи је Кности, његове четкице баш лепо очисте плочу. Ово што ти имаш јесте јефтино, али не ради посао добро као Кности.

 Ја обавезно Кности користим за испирање пре а обавезно и после чишћења са лепком. Као течност користим Groovinator.

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20 hours ago, CA-RIA said:

Aко је плоча изгребана, стање можеш да побољшаш, али никада и ни са чим не могу плоче да не шуште, јер је у питању физичко оштећење пластике.

 Бољи је Кности, његове четкице баш лепо очисте плочу. Ово што ти имаш јесте јефтино, али не ради посао добро као Кности.

 Ја обавезно Кности користим за испирање пре а обавезно и после чишћења са лепком. Као течност користим Groovinator.

Hvala, gde mogu da nabavim knosti i tu tecnost? Mislim da sam video na kupujemprodajem 80e sa tecnoscu? El to ok cena?

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Isprobao sam Micerarnu vodu na vinilu prethodno tretiranom WD sprejem (od pre godinu) i došao do sledećeg zaključka. Ovakav vinil sam klasifikovao kao vinil sa brazdama u kojima ima masnoće, zalepljene prašine, dakle kao prljaviji vinil.

Samo čišćenjem bez ispiranja demi vodom, mebl štof sa mnoštvom dlaka nije uspeo da izvuče sve iz brazda. Na igli se do npr. dve trećine ploče nakupi neki "elastični" ostatak koju vrh izvuče. Ponovnim čišćenjem, ali i ispiranjem (jer micelarna voda stvara finu penicu od deterdženta u sebi) demi vodom, praćeno sušenjem, nije više ostavljalo ništa na igli. Ta ploča je dosta površinski oštećena, ali nigde ne preskače tako da je pucketanje vrlo prisutno, ali je zvuk dosta solidan i slušljiv za njen izgled. Naravno ako možete da zanemarite konstanto krckanje i pucketanje.

Vinil koji je očuvan i nema problema sa površinskim šumovima ili površinskim oštećenjima osim par masnih prstiju, naelektisanost i prašine na površini, nakon pranja i ispiranja zadržava tišinu vinila oslobođenu predhodnih pucktanja prašine ali čujno bolje i preciznije prezentuje visoke tonove, što u celini daje i precizniju prezentaciju svega tonalno nižeg.

Ja sam pranje radio rotirajući ploču na gramofonu sa vrlo malo miclarne vode na mebl štofu obmotanom oko sunđera. Postepeno dodajući demi vodu na štof i posle svakog prolaza čistio površinu štofa od pene u kojoj je prljavština. Posle tri prolaza štofom, prešao sam na analogisovu duplu četku na kojoj su odstranjene dlačice i postoji samo široki filc. Dodajući samo demi vodu nastavio sam sa ispiranjem još dva prolaza. Konačno isušivanje sam izvodio somotskim filcom koji izvlači svu vlagu i polira površinu ploče da ne ostanu tragovi isparene vode. I na kraju pre reprodukcije druga ali suva analogisova dupla četka takođe bez dlakica sa širokim filcem da pokupi fine dlačice somotskog filca koje ostanu nakon sušenja.

Verujem da bi u knosti kadi to bilo daleko jednostavnije i brže nego ovako, ali za čistu probu je postupak bio dovoljno dobar, jer zaključak je da nakon dobrog ispiranja brazde zaista ostaju čiste i oslobođene prljavštine.

Ne škodi vinilu, to je sigurno, ali zahteva dobro ispiranje demi vodom nakon faze pranja. Zvučni rezultat je vrlo dobar i mislim da je uspešniji od dosadašnjeg recepta koji sam koristio.

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On 9/17/2021 at 9:02 AM, Marko Pele said:

Hvala, gde mogu da nabavim knosti i tu tecnost? Mislim da sam video na kupujemprodajem 80e sa tecnoscu? El to ok cena?

To je мало скупље, раније је цена била око 50 евра за Кности.

 Препоручујем ти да не користиш Кностијеву течност (осим у некој крајњој потреби).

 Groovinator имаш на ebay. Jeфтин и солидан, али ја га не користим без лепка. Тј. користим га да испирам плоче пре и после лепка.

 Све зависи од тебе колико имаш живаца, моје мишљење је да се чишћење лепком исплати, мада је само прање Кностијем заморно, а и четкице се прљају, ал шта да се ради.

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  • 2 months later...
5 hours ago, Mingus,Mingus said:

Procitao sam da je dobro prati ploce Arf antistatic.Da li neko ima iskustva.Navodi da je lepak dobar ali  ima kratkorocan efekat jer se posle jos lakse napuni prasinom.

8817257381918.png

Тај што то пише никада није прао плоче са лепком. Уосталом постоји више лепкова за дрво, није сваки лепак исти и не постиже код прања сваки лепак исти ефекат.

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6 sati ranije, Mingus,Mingus said:

Procitao sam da je dobro prati ploce Arf antistatic.

Где си то прочитао?

Надам се да није она ФБ група у коју сви величају пресинге из бивше нам државе.

Ако јесте, бар сам 10 таквих "праних" плоча са Арфом морао спашавати. Близак ми пријатељ, иначе бих га начисто отерао где сунце не сија. Требао сам да фотографирам воду коју сам избацио из машине након прања тих "опраних" плоча.

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Ovo što radi mašina sa snimka ja postižem sa 3% hidrogenom i demineralizovanom vodom, ručno.

Koristim tufere za skidanje laka (okrugle, pljosnate). Nakapljem hidrogen na tufer i onda kombinacijom kružnih pokreta (dok pratim brazde ploče) predjem celu jednu stranu dva-tri puta. Onda drugom stranom tog tufera samo pratim brazde od početka ploče pa do centralne etikete.

Tako obe strane i dok završim drugu za prvu je već prošlo 2-3 minuta pa nju odmah prelazim sa drugim tuferom natopljenim demineralizovanom vodom.

Nakon obe strane, blago posušim magičnom krpom (da pokupi svu vodu) i ostavim da se suši 10-15 minuta na sobnoj temperaturi.

Preslušam i ako sam zadovoljan, nove gaće i u omot - ako nisam tj. ako je rezultat isti ili sličan pre pranja onda ide pod lepak kao poslednja šansa za boljitak reprodukcije.

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