somilenko Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Nekad je dovoljno samo da isučeš patku, ne treba merenje...Što bi rekli volim male ženske ruke, u njima sve izgleda veliko, e tu bi recimo merenje shebalo stvar...Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Iliti kulturnije - Big in Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filipescu Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 1 sat ranije, Zexx said: Nekad je dovoljno samo da isučeš patku, ne treba merenje... Сјајно! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 8 hours ago, zflazar said: Hi Swen, welcome to our little serbian freek hifi society! As you wrote, you use your own DSP software. Does it mean that the others did not meet your needs/expectations? Or other words, if they are crap, how can you recommend to use active crossovers instead the old fashioned ones? First of all, I never said the activ x-overs or dsp of other companies are crap;) An Accuphase DF65 is definitely no crap. Accurate is also no crap, these are perfect options. Why I didn't use Acapella horns, Avantgarde Acoustic, Cessaro or odeon? For one simple reason, I don't think they are even near to what's possible. So we did it another way. For the same reason we developed our own dsp. It's a solution optimized for our needs. And the reason that I don't use a passiv X-over, I already told above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Dacho said: @swenthehornmaker Can you show us some picture of the speaker measurement in your listening room? Attached a 1/24 octave measurement. Usually I just use 1/6 or 1/3 octave, because it's simply more realistic. Nobody can recognize 1/24 octave dips modes;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Zexx said: Nekad je dovoljno samo da isučeš patku, ne treba merenje... True. Measuring is important if you develop. Also to get the first basic settings. But the fine tuning should be done by listening. The ear is the most important tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 1 hour ago, prophet said: Mislim da sam u proteklih par godina u vise navrata nailazio na pojedina merenja. Konkretno se secam merenja za visokotonac i Elysio hornu. Bilo je to ok. Ne vidim razlog zbog cega bi bilo ko to izbegavao. Meni je sa druge strane dovoljna cinjenica da je pravilno adresirao probleme. To je pokazatelj da poznaje problematiku. Uz pomoc DSP ne sumnjam da je uspesno reseno. Taj segment mi nije interesantan pa zbog toga i ne obracam toliku paznju. Sa druge strane zainteresovacu se za deo vezan za pasivne skretnice. 1 hour ago, prophet said: Mislim da sam u proteklih par godina u vise navrata nailazio na pojedina merenja. Konkretno se secam merenja za visokotonac i Elysio hornu. Bilo je to ok. Ne vidim razlog zbog cega bi bilo ko to izbegavao. Meni je sa druge strane dovoljna cinjenica da je pravilno adresirao probleme. To je pokazatelj da poznaje problematiku. Uz pomoc DSP ne sumnjam da je uspesno reseno. Taj segment mi nije interesantan pa zbog toga i ne obracam toliku paznju. Sa druge strane zainteresovacu se za deo vezan za pasivne skretnice. That's a measurement without DSP of the 15A and 666 driver. For sure it's also possible without DSP. Using a dsp, analogue, Tubes and discuss this, is dangerous like religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 True. Measuring is important if you develop. Also to get the first basic settings. But the fine tuning should be done by listening. The ear is the most important toolWell, as I've already mentioned I had no doubts about solving the issues.Based on my humble experience, it would be nice to measure both speakers with pink noise signal with mic pointed to the center. Also some impulse, phase, waterfall...but I guess You've already done it. I like very much what I saw regarding the mid horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damic Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 7 sati ranije, swenthehornmaker said: Attached a 1/24 octave measurement. Usually I just use 1/6 or 1/3 octave, because it's simply more realistic. Nobody can recognize 1/24 octave dips modes;) Hi Swen. Measurement is made from 1m, MLP or other? One channel or both? Give us more details. Bass part is usually preferred to be without smoothing (from 20Hz to 200 or 300Hz). I am using REW where Y (vertical) axis should be usually from +45dB to +105dB, spl curve about +75dB. You have vertical span of 100dB in negative area what gives different impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damic Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 BTW, I am also last 15 years in active camp, a bit different, big ribbons Apogee Duetta Sig's plus 4 subs, 4 stereo amps and professional digital DSP-xo, one for each channel. Hi-Fi active systems, are here very rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zflazar Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 To be honest, active systems are very rare everywhere Thank you for the Accuphase and Accurate recommendation. It is worthwhile becouse come from person who is a deep-diver in matter of active/DSP waters. I am not familiar with crossover/loudspeaker construction at all, but I always enjoy in reading and explanation of people who brings the music closer and more enjoyable, so please go on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 11 hours ago, prophet said: Well, as I've already mentioned I had no doubts about solving the issues. Based on my humble experience, it would be nice to measure both speakers with pink noise signal with mic pointed to the center. Also some impulse, phase, waterfall...but I guess You've already done it. I like very much what I saw regarding the mid horn. Both measurements are PN. 15A with 666 is measured exactly at the horn mouth. The other measurement 20-20.000 is measured in 480 cm distance also with PN at my listening spot. It's an left and right measurement, so that the possible phase issues are already shown. But as you can see. At the cutting points are no dips. 160/1650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 hours ago, damic said: BTW, I am also last 15 years in active camp, a bit different, big ribbons Apogee Duetta Sig's plus 4 subs, 4 stereo amps and professional digital DSP-xo, one for each channel. Hi-Fi active systems, are here very rare. Yes, because there are so many prejudices. The way the measurements are taken is written above. The Arta "Over all" measurement is an old one from the time our new dsp wasn't involved. The new one uses IIR and FIR and the response looks much better. But to be honest, I give a shit for flattening the curve Eben the worst speakers can be flattened and they still sound horrible. Phase, Delay, Dynamic for micro informations and the room, that's the main things to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 hours ago, zflazar said: To be honest, active systems are very rare everywhere Thank you for the Accuphase and Accurate recommendation. It is worthwhile becouse come from person who is a deep-diver in matter of active/DSP waters. I am not familiar with crossover/loudspeaker construction at all, but I always enjoy in reading and explanation of people who brings the music closer and more enjoyable, so please go on! In maybe 2-3 weeks I will post some pictures of the new dsp we are using. The prototype is implemented in my system since a few weeks now but the case isn't ready right now. So I don't want to post a simple wooden board with all the wirings. Attached a picture of the prototype of the case. CNC drilled from one aluminum block worth 10 Millimeter strong walls. The power supply is a 100 Watt ultra low noise analogue version and is placed in a separate case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hifista Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 Meni tudje merenjenje ne znaci nista ako mi nije jasan nacin i motiv tog merenja. Naslusao sam se merno upeglanih sistema koji zvuce lose. Narocito bas odziv u sobi, gde je kritican uticaj sobe i opreme prilikom merenja. Uhvatis se za pikove i peglanje istih, a kako vidis dal je bas los? Meni je npr. prvo testiranje basa na muzici koja nema izrazenog basa, npr pustim dublji vokale. Na vokalu vidim zvuci li mi prirodno, da li mi postaje mutan i neprirodan ako ukljucim subwoofer, da li se menja iluzija pozornice. Najbitniji je uticaj na regiju u kojoj je smesteno najvise muzike, jasno cujem razliku izmedju bas reflex i kompresione kutije, tipova pojacala ako je multiamping u pitanju, pozicije subwoofera. Onda slusam kako bas crta akusticki prostor, recimo orkestarska muzika koja se snima u akusticnim dvoranama a opet nema izrazenih ekstremnih basova. Da li je prostor realno odslikan ili zvuci kao losa imitiacija (zamuceno, tvrdo, neprirodno). Zvuci li bolje sa ili bez ukljucenog subwoofera? Tek na trecem mestu mi je muzika u kojoj ima dosta bas energije, po mogucnosti proizvodenog akusticnim instrumentom (kontrabas, bas bubanj, orgulje...). Tu se susrecemo sa sobom i treba mukotrpno pozicionirati kutije, pre nego sto se krene sa tretiranjem sobe i dodatnom ekvilizacijom skretnice. Nikako ne podcenjujem znacaj merenja, ali na prvo mesto uvek stavljam filozofiju i umetnost slusanja dizajnera i slusaoca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somilenko Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 Sve u svemu bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somilenko Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 sat ranije, swenthehornmaker said: Yes, because there are so many prejudices. The way the measurements are taken is written above. The Arta "Over all" measurement is an old one from the time our new dsp wasn't involved. The new one uses IIR and FIR and the response looks much better. But to be honest, I give a shit for flattening the curve Eben the worst speakers can be flattened and they still sound horrible. Phase, Delay, Dynamic for micro informations and the room, that's the main things to me Have You done some impulse response measurement of the system, that would be interesting to see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperFi Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 sat ranije, hifista said: Meni tudje merenjenje ne znaci nista ako mi nije jasan nacin i motiv tog merenja. Naslusao sam se merno upeglanih sistema koji zvuce lose. Narocito bas odziv u sobi, gde je kritican uticaj sobe i opreme prilikom merenja. Uhvatis se za pikove i peglanje istih, a kako vidis dal je bas los? Meni je npr. prvo testiranje basa na muzici koja nema izrazenog basa, npr pustim dublji vokale. Na vokalu vidim zvuci li mi prirodno, da li mi postaje mutan i neprirodan ako ukljucim subwoofer, da li se menja iluzija pozornice. Najbitniji je uticaj na regiju u kojoj je smesteno najvise muzike, jasno cujem razliku izmedju bas reflex i kompresione kutije, tipova pojacala ako je multiamping u pitanju, pozicije subwoofera. Onda slusam kako bas crta akusticki prostor, recimo orkestarska muzika koja se snima u akusticnim dvoranama a opet nema izrazenih ekstremnih basova. Da li je prostor realno odslikan ili zvuci kao losa imitiacija (zamuceno, tvrdo, neprirodno). Zvuci li bolje sa ili bez ukljucenog subwoofera? Tek na trecem mestu mi je muzika u kojoj ima dosta bas energije, po mogucnosti proizvodenog akusticnim instrumentom (kontrabas, bas bubanj, orgulje...). Tu se susrecemo sa sobom i treba mukotrpno pozicionirati kutije, pre nego sto se krene sa tretiranjem sobe i dodatnom ekvilizacijom skretnice. Nikako ne podcenjujem znacaj merenja, ali na prvo mesto uvek stavljam filozofiju i umetnost slusanja dizajnera i slusaoca. @hifista koji subwoofer koristis? Moze li neka slika sadasnjeg sistema? Kako si pozicionirao kutije u odnosu na ono kako su postavljene u temi o tvom sistemu? Neki tretman sobe? Sve me to tek ceka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, somilenko said: Have You done some impulse response measurement of the system, that would be interesting to see... Impulse response measurements of Horn speakers are not very meaningfull. Therefore we just take impulse response measurements of the single drivers in a pwt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenthehornmaker Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 hours ago, hifista said: Meni tudje merenjenje ne znaci nista ako mi nije jasan nacin i motiv tog merenja. Naslusao sam se merno upeglanih sistema koji zvuce lose. Narocito bas odziv u sobi, gde je kritican uticaj sobe i opreme prilikom merenja. Uhvatis se za pikove i peglanje istih, a kako vidis dal je bas los? Meni je npr. prvo testiranje basa na muzici koja nema izrazenog basa, npr pustim dublji vokale. Na vokalu vidim zvuci li mi prirodno, da li mi postaje mutan i neprirodan ako ukljucim subwoofer, da li se menja iluzija pozornice. Najbitniji je uticaj na regiju u kojoj je smesteno najvise muzike, jasno cujem razliku izmedju bas reflex i kompresione kutije, tipova pojacala ako je multiamping u pitanju, pozicije subwoofera. Onda slusam kako bas crta akusticki prostor, recimo orkestarska muzika koja se snima u akusticnim dvoranama a opet nema izrazenih ekstremnih basova. Da li je prostor realno odslikan ili zvuci kao losa imitiacija (zamuceno, tvrdo, neprirodno). Zvuci li bolje sa ili bez ukljucenog subwoofera? Tek na trecem mestu mi je muzika u kojoj ima dosta bas energije, po mogucnosti proizvodenog akusticnim instrumentom (kontrabas, bas bubanj, orgulje...). Tu se susrecemo sa sobom i treba mukotrpno pozicionirati kutije, pre nego sto se krene sa tretiranjem sobe i dodatnom ekvilizacijom skretnice. Nikako ne podcenjujem znacaj merenja, ali na prvo mesto uvek stavljam filozofiju i umetnost slusanja dizajnera i slusaoca. Absolutely correct. Measuring is for developing and basic setups. That's all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delija Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 sati ranije, hifista said: Narocito bas odziv u sobi, gde je kritican uticaj sobe i opreme prilikom merenja. Uhvatis se za pikove i peglanje istih, a kako vidis dal je bas los? Potpisujem Da je tako jednostavno - zivot bi nam bio mnogo laksi Gotovo idealan FR, ukljucujuci i waterfall - a zvuk lom. Faza, recimo, dzumbus pravi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majda Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 @swenthehornmaker can You post some pics of Your original driver? (That is the most interesting part.) And wich unit You are usung for low-end horn system? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hifista Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 [mention=43837]hifista[/mention] koji subwoofer koristis? Moze li neka slika sadasnjeg sistema? Kako si pozicionirao kutije u odnosu na ono kako su postavljene u temi o tvom sistemu? Neki tretman sobe? Sve me to tek ceka. Imas sve u temi hifista sistem. Trenutno se bavim preseljenjem u drugi zivotni prostor, pa cu dopuniti temu sa pozicioniranjem i daljom evolucijom sistema kad dodje na red.Послато са SM-N960F помоћу Тапатока Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majda Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 Ranije nisi ni morao koristiti ekvilizacuje u bilo kom obliku... Digitalnih nije ni bilo, ali je zato bilo vrlo dobrih do odlicnih drivera. Za kompresione kabinete recimo. Na primer prva serija Dynaudio 12in poslednja oznaka 100? ili stari RCF. BIlo je i drugih. I to ne onako po sistemu = hajde da stavimo ovaj X-driver ne interesuju nas TS parametri, u ovu bezveze kutiju random dimenzija. Nego bas na osnovu parametara a da kutija ne bude 700L Ida se sa monimumom pomeraja faze spusti ispod 25Hz. Takvih drivera danas jednostavno vise nema. Velike su pokretne mase, pretvrda vesanja da podrze enormne ekskurzije i da obezbede postojanost na enormnim snagama, grejanje kalemova reseno raznim hi-tech premazima... Slusali smo te i slicne stvari pre 30-35 godina radilo je kao SAT. Ovo danas katastrofa. Pokretne mase 300-400gm, ekskurzije 10cm parametri losi nigde se prakticno ne uklapaju... Ko je koristio rogram JBL speaker shop (od pre hrista). sa bazom tacnih TS podataka ogromnog broja zvucnika, zna o cemu pricam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperFi Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 sati ranije, hifista said: Imas sve u temi hifista sistem. Trenutno se bavim preseljenjem u drugi zivotni prostor, pa cu dopuniti temu sa pozicioniranjem i daljom evolucijom sistema kad dodje na red. Послато са SM-N960F помоћу Тапатока Znaci to sto pises da si radio merenja i slusanje, to je u starom prostoru ili novom? Ako je u starom, da li ces sve raditi iz pocetka ili ces moci to primeniti? Pretpostavljam da je jedna od prednosti DSP i to sto je mnogo fleksibilniji? Takodje, brze se dodje do rezultata? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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