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Saving the world from Ordinary


anubisgrau

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7 hours ago, hifista said:

I am sharing your philosophy that speaker should be build from dedicated melody range (upper bass/low midrange). Unfortunately most commercial speakers are to much compromised in that region, giving priority to bass extension (same driver covering upper bass and low bass with the help of secondary resonance principle such as bass reflex, tqwt, tl ...) or overly detailed mid/high region (as combining direct radiator and typical compression horn). 

Using compression driver for upper bass is highly exotic as only few very expensive options are available (such WE, ALE, GOTO) requiring very long horns making physical time alignment impossible. Most of the people using direct radiators here, similar to Avantgarde Trio upper bass channel, using 100hz tractrix horn.

You have mentioned you are using DSP. Are you using it only for delay (time aligment) or for full crossover function. Many audiophiles, including myself are not aware about audiophile quality DSP crossovers, finding it usable only with subwoofers. Have you discovered some special DSP/DAC/MultiAmp configuration?

 

We use the DSP for x-over also. Like many people having prejudice, I have them for passiv x-overs. I used them 30 years. After looking back, it was a waste of time. Maybe later we can go deeper into this part. A very interesting one.

In all other things, it seems we sharing a lot of Intersections;)

 

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10 sati ranije, swenthehornmaker said:

We use the DSP for x-over also. Like many people having prejudice, I have them for passiv x-overs. I used them 30 years. After looking back, it was a waste of time. Maybe later we can go deeper into this part. A very interesting one.

In all other things, it seems we sharing a lot of Intersections;)

 

Hello Sven. As you may notice many simply cannot imagine active crossovers, any digital or DSP in speakers, and especially high-sensitivity speakers of such a concept as yours. It would be very interesting to hear your thinking about why you left the classic crossovers, how much it makes a difference in sound and quality. Since I also use DSP in my speakers, it is clear to me why you went in that direction, especially since you developed your own software. Despite the many advantages, many claim that the DSP has its own stamp in the sound that many cannot think of.

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Mozda zbog toga sto nije u pitanju samo pozicioniranje vec celokupna instalacija. Ovo je jako specifican slucaj. Dopada mi se kako su pravilno adresirani problemi. Imam odavno takvu zamisao za svoje potkrovlje, nekih 130m2. Bas horne bi bile duze (nesto poput onog "ludog" italijana), ali sam izlaz zamislio identicno. I point source naravno. Isao bih pasivno.

Sasvim je druga prica kada se rade instalacije u drugim prostorima. Tu bi zaista trebalo puno vremena da se pasivom postigne ono sto se aktivom i DSPem lakse resava.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dacho said:

Hello Sven. As you may notice many simply cannot imagine active crossovers, any digital or DSP in speakers, and especially high-sensitivity speakers of such a concept as yours. It would be very interesting to hear your thinking about why you left the classic crossovers, how much it makes a difference in sound and quality. Since I also use DSP in my speakers, it is clear to me why you went in that direction, especially since you developed your own software. Despite the many advantages, many claim that the DSP has its own stamp in the sound that many cannot think of.

With passiv x-overs me and a few friends and partners worked more than 20 years. There are so many advantages with activ filters. Especially fir. But also IIR are already a big upgrade, even if they are analog filters in their design.

 

1.Small room issues can be solved. Yes x, passive room treatment is the better choice, but in many situations they are not possible. 

2. 6/12dB slopes are no really x-overs to me. Imagine a cut of 12dB at 1000Hz. At 2000Hz the sound is still their, just 12dAb less. At 4000 24dB less. The human ear can recognize THD2 down to -40dB. 

3. Phase shifting. Therefore we prefer in case of IIR 24dB. In 24dB slopes you have exactly a 180 degree phase shift. 2x180 degrees are 360. Best choice in case there are no fir filter available. 

4. The old story of DA/AD converting and losing the ANALOGUE Path. The only true way;) in a passiv x-over design, the speaker comes behind the x-over. So the signal from the beloved tube amp, already was changed in phase and impulse inside the passiv x-over parts. In case of an dsp the tube amp comes behind x and the tone Signal goes unchanged into the driver. Mich better. 

5. Delay. In case of 200 up to 800 cm long horns you simply need a Delay and bucket chains are for idiots 

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2 hours ago, prophet said:

Mozda zbog toga sto nije u pitanju samo pozicioniranje vec celokupna instalacija. Ovo je jako specifican slucaj. Dopada mi se kako su pravilno adresirani problemi. Imam odavno takvu zamisao za svoje potkrovlje, nekih 130m2. Bas horne bi bile duze (nesto poput onog "ludog" italijana), ali sam izlaz zamislio identicno. I point source naravno. Isao bih pasivno.

Sasvim je druga prica kada se rade instalacije u drugim prostorima. Tu bi zaista trebalo puno vremena da se pasivom postigne ono sto se aktivom i DSPem lakse resava.

 

 

What kind of system you are planning for your 130 sqm room? Maybe maybe you can participate from our experience 

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2 hours ago, prophet said:

Mozda zbog toga sto nije u pitanju samo pozicioniranje vec celokupna instalacija. Ovo je jako specifican slucaj. Dopada mi se kako su pravilno adresirani problemi. Imam odavno takvu zamisao za svoje potkrovlje, nekih 130m2. Bas horne bi bile duze (nesto poput onog "ludog" italijana), ali sam izlaz zamislio identicno. I point source naravno. Isao bih pasivno.

Sasvim je druga prica kada se rade instalacije u drugim prostorima. Tu bi zaista trebalo puno vremena da se pasivom postigne ono sto se aktivom i DSPem lakse resava.

 

 

What kind of system you are planning on your 130 sqm room? 

Maybe you can participate from our experience. 

The concrete bass of the guy from Italy we did also a few times.  

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@swenthehornmaker That is something in the long run. The advantage is that the half space is elevated 50-60cm from the other half, so that is where my bass chamber and most of the bas horn will be placed. The exit or the mouth of the horn was planned to be almost the same as Yours.  I am planning to do some isolation with sand. But first of all I need to reorganize the attic, the supporting beams of the roof and free the space. 

As for the room treatments, my experince is that with carefully chosen design and implementation there is no need for treatments regarding  bass issues. Only for some room issues that affects in the  the midrange. Altough it is much simpler design, no horns involved.

Your experience is precious and many thanks for the help offered. You surely have  some interesting  drivers and horns.


 
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9 hours ago, prophet said:

@swenthehornmaker That is something in the long run. The advantage is that the half space is elevated 50-60cm from the other half, so that is where my bass chamber and most of the bas horn will be placed. The exit or the mouth of the horn was planned to be almost the same as Yours.  I am planning to do some isolation with sand. But first of all I need to reorganize the attic, the supporting beams of the roof and free the space. 

As for the room treatments, my experince is that with carefully chosen design and implementation there is no need for treatments regarding  bass issues. Only for some room issues that affects in the  the midrange. Altough it is much simpler design, no horns involved.

Your experience is precious and many thanks for the help offered. You surely have  some interesting  drivers and horns.


 

Isolation with sand? In my room I use low aperiodic frequency dampers, which are located under the 5,5 cm thick baffle which carrys the bass drivers. To the outside walls the board is isolated with 2 cm thick moos gum. To the inner horn curve and to the top I have 3 Millimeter space what I closed with Acryl. By this I have a nearly 100% perfect isolation from the baffle to the rest of the room 

FEF2E593-80EE-4816-B127-5798EDEDDE64.jpeg

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40 minutes ago, anubisgrau said:

Tell us about your taste in cars? What do you drive?

I have a 996 4S, a Hummer H3 Alpha and two military Humvees 1990 and 1991. I love off-roading. The Porsche I'm selling right now. I'm buying a 1967 Chevelle with stroker. In the past I had already some muscle cars like Chevelle 72, Mustang and Chevy Nova.  

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32 minutes ago, prophet said:

@swenthehornmaker

Well, it seems You enjoy equally in driving as in music listening. Also, You took a hardest way to achive it.

Linija veceg otpora as we say in serbian.

That's the only aproach if You want to find something new and to learn also.

 

 

 

 

I worked, I learned, I did mistakes and I learned from them. The easiest way to achieve progress is to learn from your mistakes ;) 

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Hi Swen,

welcome to our little serbian freek hifi society!

As you wrote, you use your own DSP software.

Does it mean that the others did not meet your needs/expectations?

Or other words, if they are crap, how can you recommend to use active crossovers instead the old fashioned ones?

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Mislim da sam u proteklih par godina u vise navrata nailazio na pojedina merenja. Konkretno se secam merenja za visokotonac i Elysio hornu. Bilo je to ok.

Ne vidim razlog zbog cega bi bilo ko to izbegavao. Meni je sa druge strane dovoljna cinjenica da je pravilno adresirao probleme. To je pokazatelj da poznaje problematiku. Uz pomoc DSP ne sumnjam da je uspesno reseno. Taj segment mi nije interesantan pa zbog toga i ne obracam toliku paznju. Sa druge strane zainteresovacu se za deo vezan za pasivne skretnice.

 

 

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