Spherical vs Elliptical vs Microline igle ( kvalitet zvuka i vek trajanja )

[Father]

Tačno B6 je mnogo muljavija sa micro line i čuju se distorzija u trackingu.

Pa kako si naštelovao Shibatu ako ti je AT štelovao Igor?

[Father]

Kako sam glup!!!!! Ti si samo naboo iglu. Skroz sam smetnuo sa uma.

[HMrules]

Just now, Father said:

Kako sam glup!!!!! Ti si samo naboo iglu. Skroz sam smetnuo sa uma.

Jeste, samo sam je zamenio.
Ma opušteno, dešava se
Sada se postavlja pitanje kako zvuči special line contact igla koja košta samo 450€ xD

[HMrules]

3 minuta ranije, Father said:

Tačno B6 je mnogo muljavija sa micro line i čuju se distorzija u trackingu.

Baš tako, samo ne znam da li je uzrok toga istrošenost microline igle.

[HMrules]

7 minuta ranije, Father said:

Sve je slojevitije sa više detalja, čak se čuje i na bubnju i na dobošu oko midbass odziva ...

Odlično radi možeš da se opustiš i UŽIVAŠ U MUZICI! 

Naravno, potpuno sam zadovoljan

[Father]

Crvena je Shibata, a zelena je Micro line

ODZIV LINEARNO

REZONANTNA FREQ.

[Father]

Po odzivu sa B6 bih rekao da je Micro line dosta izgubila na odzivu već od 9kHz, verovatno zbog istrošenosti ili ko zna možda i nije dorasla Shibati 

Da ne bude u svemu lošija, za nijansu je bolja u Rez.Freq.

[HMrules]

2 minuta ranije, Father said:

Po odzivu sa B6 bih rekao da je Micro line dosta izgubila na odzivu već od 9kHz, verovatno zbog istrošenosti ili ko zna možda i nije dorasla Shibati 

Da ne bude u svemu lošija, za nijansu je bolja u Rez.Freq.

Nešto jeste u pitanju, u svakom slučaju važno je da shibata svira odlično

Vidim ali nadam se da to nije ništa strašno.

[Father]

Proveri gaznu sliu da nije malo pridodata, ume ona da povuče malo ali ne baš za 1Hz.

[HMrules]

Za microline je 0.75 do 1.75 a ja sam je slušao na 1.45-1.50, shibata od 1 do 1.8 i bila je ista gazna sila 1.45-1.50.

[Father]

Odlicno za Shibatu kada ispod svoha minimuma ima bolje separacije cinela i celog opsega od ML. Na 1.55g sa Shibatom ces dobiti jos mesa u korenu zvuka i nesto konkretnije cinele. Mislim, i ovako je impresivno kako radi.

[Infidel]

1 sat ranije, HMrules said:

...ATN150MLX microline igle koja je radila 25 meseci tako da ne znam kolika je tačno istrošenost ove igle iako sam u proseku slušao svaki drugi dan dve ploče maksimalno, životni vek microline igle je 1000 sati dok je shibata igle 800 sati.
...
 

Ne znam zašto kada se koriste skuplje igle ne kupiti neku spravicu kojom se registruje (recimo) broj preslušenih stana LP ploča:

https://www.ebay.com/p/2pcs-Handheld-Tally-Hand-Counter-4-DIGIT-Number-Manual-Mechanical-Clicker-Golf/1310141334?iid=253135482010

 

[Krca44]

39 minutes ago, Infidel said:

spravicu kojom se registruje (recimo) broj preslušenih stana LP ploča

Hvala za link,  video sam skoro na necijem postu i pitao se gde da nabavim ovaj brojac i kako se uopste zove.  Ja sam zbog razlicite minutaze pisao na papir ali to je onda papirologija.   Mene zanima za svaku vrstu vrha, da bih znao kad treba menjati i proveriti stanje.

[Infidel]

Dovoljno su jeftini da je isplativo imati više komada, koliko je već potrebno...

[空也]

Ja ih koristim već godinama!

Imam četiri komada.

Jedna strana ploče jedan klik, tri klika računam kao cca jedan sat svirke.

 

 

Ako je gore pomenuti microline vrh igle svirao 25 meseci dve ploče svaki drugi dan (praktično jedna ploča dnevno?) to mu dođe ((25x30)x2):3=500, znači 500 sati svirke.

Neke proizvođači (na primer JICO) daju mnogo kraći životni vek igle, po njima je igla sa 500 sati rada potrošena (u smislu kvalitetne reprodukcije sa malim distorzijama).

Poređenje napola ili potpuno potrošene igle sa potpuno novom, nije merodavno za neki definitivan zaključak u vezi razlika između dva tipa vrhova.

[空也]

Već sam postovao ovo ranije na forumu, ali evo ga ponovo, od viška ne boli glava  .

Obratiti posebnu pažnju na boldovani i crveni deo teksta pred kraj, u kojem se kaže da čujna degradacija u visokim tonovima već blago počinje poslie 100 sati, a da se jasno čuje već posle 300 sati rada.

 

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=34521

Obviously no one wants to reveal special information that they (a cartridge/stylus mnfr) has proprietary knowledge about. That being said, JICO, who I respect in the utmost, now lists a 5% distortion vs wear level, where the original stylus was at the less than 3% level to start. The suspensions are the bit of the system that needs the break-in. The stylus itself is what it is from day 1 (or maybe day 2 if there is a poor polish on the diamond).

I can't tell you how gut-wrenching it is for someone with hundreds of phono cartridge styli to find out that there is significant distortion due to styus wear after 600 hours on ANYTHING JICO has tested. They are very up-front about this on their website. They say that their SAS stylus ONLY begins to have this distortion vs wear/time-usage period after 500 hours. It is also true that the extreme styus designs will wear "with-the-disc" for the first 600-800 hours, and then catastrophic vinyl damage begins to appear.

I found this so hard to believe I asked me retipper to probe the JICO people to know what made them rate styli vs distortion this way. I knew I needed to analyze/rate stylus shapes vs wear patterns vs distortion on either channel for each stylus shape. The weird reality is that if there is "more" diamond, this helps this ratio (see above). But since an MR/VdH/ML/etc. stylus wears in a way that causes the entire stylus to keep tracking highs properly as it is being "ground down", the quality of the sound does not change until the diamond is near catastrophic damage to vinyl.

So, by test, JICO has determined that when measuring ANY stylus design, using the highest quality diamonds, the best they have seen is the VdH1 which will only stay below 5% distortion for 800-1000 hours under the absolute "most perfect" operating conditions. The SAS stylus is very good up to 500 hours along with MR, MT, Gyger1, Stereohedron, etc.

There are so many variables involved that if you only listen to Archive DDG discs or only Telefunken discs with the best vinyl lubricants in the vinyl, or only Desmar discs etc. perhaps your vinyl vs diamond styus wear is less. But, by test now, I think JICO is correct in their assessment of stylus wear. By their tests an SAS stylus is "good" for 500 hours in an optimized tonearm/stylus set-up. Line contact and hyperellipticals are not as good. By the time we get to an elliptical stylus they only stay below the distortion test numbers up to about 200 hours. Sphericals are never below 3% distortion due to tracking/stylus-size problems. But at 7KHz sphericals are usable for 133 hours without a distortion measurement larger than 5% at 7KHz.

The majority of the test measurements used by JICO in this broad test were from 5KHz to 22KHz. This range is not only important for imaging, but many instruments require many high freq harmonics to be properly reproduced (cymbals, piano, tubular bells, carillon, glass bells, castanets, harmonics. etc. I thought at first this was a shameless effort by JICO to sell more styli. Obviously JICO wants to sell more styli.

But my retipper also feels that her styli DO wear out much faster (on a distortion basis) than is the current opinion. So maybe she is trying to sell more retipping (except she is booked for 10 years now). So I tried my own tests. While the distortion at 1KHz remains good for thousands of hours, on many types of stylus tip designs, the distortion at 15KHz shows exactly the wear period vs stylus shape that JICO advocates.

We have all felt the "renewal" of fidelity feeling when we put a new cartridge or stylus into our tonearms. It may be more common than we'd like to admit. I am testing some cartridges from buyers who buy 5x of something if they like it. It is fine with them that I wear-out one of their styli using the JICO 5% criteria. Then I set up a new stylus vs the worn stylus (500 hours) with 2 turntables the same, playing the same music/vinyl. I am unhappy to report that the difference is easy to hear after 500 hours with the best styli.

So I think the optimism hoping for the best, combined with unreasonable advertising information, has made the 1500 to 2000 hour "expectation" a part of the current audio vernacular. This is only because the listeners are willing to accept very high levels of distortion at 10KHz and 12KHz etc. But listeners who use electrostatic loudspeakers, and other very high end loudspeakers, can easily hear the distortions I speak of. ALL the other manufacturers information I have had access to is constant that the better stylus designs would have longer hours of use. But this seems to be based on the assumption that the life span of spherical and elliptical styli were in the range of 500 - 750 hours of usage, and this seems to be generally false.

While multi-thousand X images are often used to EXPLAIN why a stylus is producing higher distortion, it is rare for any manufacturer to make a stylus, ... then play the stylus and test it after 100 hours, and also check the stylus profile when those distortion measurements were made, then the same after 150 hours, 200 hours, etc. etc. Then to make 2 or 3 of these stylus profiles, and test them, etc., is unusual. So a large portion of this information is new (being proprietary, it is normally held close to the vest by manufacturers, and usually this type of testing is only done, when the manufacturer is assessing a batch of diamonds - To Buy). So the CBS tests notwithstanding, the reality of the tests doen checking 12KHz or 15KHz distortion vs hours of use, is new.

There are 2 different perspectives on putting these types of wear numbers into a website for a manufacturer. On the one hand, the manufacturer wants to sell more styli (okay ... that's given). But for the more reputable manufacturers, there is an interest in explaining why the high freq distortion performance for their very best cartridge, begins to degrade, well below 750 hours of use. Explaining this reality to users makes the companies doing it, more credible. Credibility sells styli too.

The changes in sound quality over time due to stylus profile wear, is very subtle as time goes by. This means most listeners don't hear it in an obvious sort of way. But what if you have 20 phono cartridges that are used often. So if I have 2 Denon 300s mounted up, and one has 400 hours on it and the other has 50 hours on it, and I compare them? I would normally attribute a difference in the highs to, the difference in assembly line QC because 300 hours shouldn't make a big difference. But it turns out that it really does make a big difference.

I can usually surpass 200 hours of use for a new cartridge within 3 months of mounting a new cartridge. I've put 100 hours on a new MC cartridge I'm testing and that is after 3 weeks of listening. I use chess clocks for time measurement, and that is reasonably accurate. The diamond profile has changed in this time. I am getting a second identical cartridge model to test as well and I will compare their performance. But it looks like the high end has probably degraded after only 100 hours. I'll check the 2 closely, but I am beginning to feel that JICO is correct. There seems to be real losses in high freq information that begins after 300 hours with any stylus profile and it is obvious and easy to measure after 500 hours.

There are allot of factors being tested in this type of situation, and even the cantilever type and exact adherence to the exact manufacturer's specified tracking pressure can influence stylus tip wear. For those of us who don't have clear, extended freq response hearing, some of this is moot. But I'm still passing the 19KHz test on both ears, so for me it it is a meaningful test. I had passed on info about what manufacturers were telling me, for many years. I am unhappy I may have misled people. Tracking pressure that is too low is just as destructive as tracking pressure that is too high. Cleaning a stylus is essential. But the way vinyl was mixed, and the lubricants used in vinyl, may be extremely important. If these test results vs listening evaluations, is reasonable, then 1/2 of the phono cartridges I am now using, are distorted in the highs above 5%. That is not good.

I hope to get more info now that this problem seems obvious. The slow degradation in the highs due to stylus wear isn't bad, but now that it can be measured through testing, it is probably correct. I often wonder why I would ever use cartridge X when I listen to it after it's been used 500-600 hours, when compared to a new, less expensive cartridge I just got for testing/evaluation. This would seem to explain why some cartridges are so great on first listening, but when reviewed after hours of use, they seem lacking. Wear is inevitable. So I shouldn't have been surprised by the JICO testing. But it is disappointing.

[Father]

Sustina je da su gramofonske igle "Pain in the ass"

I onda kupi MC glavu pa je retipuj posle 6 meseci ako si pican audiofilski. Sve se plasim.

Da i ne pominjem da pola gramofondzija nema pojma da osnovno podesi gramofon, a protraktor je svemirski brod. Koliko li se onda tek smanji vek profila igle da mi je znati, obzirom da su sva ova merenja radjena u idealno podesenim uslovima i sa besprekornim vinilima.

Mila moja majcice. 

[空也]

Zaboravih da boldujem i zacrvenim ovaj deo:

I found this so hard to believe I asked me retipper to probe the JICO people to know what made them rate styli vs distortion this way. I knew I needed to analyze/rate stylus shapes vs wear patterns vs distortion on either channel for each stylus shape. The weird reality is that if there is "more" diamond, this helps this ratio (see above). But since an MR/VdH/ML/etc. stylus wears in a way that causes the entire stylus to keep tracking highs properly as it is being "ground down", the quality of the sound does not change until the diamond is near catastrophic damage to vinyl.

@Father Iz razloga pomenutih u gornjem pasusu, na tvom mestu bih pomno pratio šta se dešava sa tvojom OM40 koju smo onomad (ima već koliko?) gledali na mikroskopu.

 

[Krca44]

Za Nude Eliptical, koji je Father snimio usb mikrom,  mogu da kazem da sigurno nije bio idealno podesen zbog problema sa ruckom koji su maskirani koriscenjem glave i shella velike mase.  Tokom upotrebe odokativno i zvucno kantilever se naoko ponasao normalno a zvucno je sve manje vise bilo ok, koliko god da vredi ova moja tvrdnja.  Vrh se sa jedne strane ofucao posle 420h, sa druge izgleda skroz ok a sad najbitnije slusno tokom vremena uvo se privikavalo polako na umanjen kvalitet reprodukcije.  Kako zvuci ofucana elipsa saznao sam tek posle pauze,  iako razlika drasticna,  tokom koriscenja od skoro godinu dana ne bih je primetio slusanjem.   Kako zvuci ova glava nova relativno brzo sam se ponovo uverio na sajmu i kod kolege.  Koliko Vam vredi ovaj komentar s obzirom na stanje rucke zakljucite sami.

Sto se tice upotrebe konusa i elipsi tokom prethodnih godina, na drugim gramofonima, sa razno raznim plocama, novim i starim, i sa podesavanjem koje sigurno nije bilo idealno,  radni vek konusa je bio po slobodnoj proceni oko 200h a elipse oko 400-500h.

Skoro sam na Tosinom Bunaru kupovao konuse za Shure i pitao gosn. Dedicu koji prodaje igle "koji je radni vek konusa ?".  Prvi odgovor je bio "Niko to ne zna".

Dalje je rekao da radni vek pri manjoj gaznoj sili ( za Shure glave koje rade sa manjom gaznom silom ) i sa novim plocama i sa jako dobrim / idealnim podesavanjem moze biti 400h a promenom bilo kojeg od pomenutih faktora znacajno se smanjuje.

 

[microfarad]

Shibata ili Fine Line? Slušao Ortofon 2M bronze i black. Za mene nema dileme, Shibata (black) je kvalitetnija i to se čuje, bez merenja. Uostalom i black i fl dele istu glavu. Pa nebi black bila 50% skuplja. Prosto rečeno, koliko para toliko muzike.

[Father]

6 sati ranije, 空也 said:

@Father Iz razloga pomenutih u gornjem pasusu, na tvom mestu bih pomno pratio šta se dešava sa tvojom OM40 koju smo onomad (ima već koliko?) gledali na mikroskopu.

Pratim, pratim i u poređenju sa OM10 koja je nova novcijata sa možda 6h salušanja do sada (mislim na vrh, glavu sam slušao sa OM40) i dalje OM40 VDH ima mnogo manje distorzija, bolje reći nema ih tamo gde ih nov OM10 pomalo prikazuje. Uglavnom je to na predzadnjoj pesmi na strani. I sa OM10 ih je vrlo teško čuti, ali sa OM40 ih uopšte nema, tako da mislim da sam u safe zoni još uvek.

Što se visine i separacije tonova tiče tu je OM40 fenomenalna još uvek, ali ono što je utvrđeno je da joj je vešanje malo skliznulo sa 35 kada je bila nova na 45 u ovom momentu, što je odvuklo rez.freq. nešto niše ispod 7Hz. I to znajući opet izvanredno trackuje celu stranu od početka do kraja. Evo prilike i da se osvrnem na moj Idealni Custom protraktor koji je u mnogome doprineo da se ceo setup tako dobro ponaša. Nije loše dodati da moja ručka ima Liliputansku dužinu od 200mm što uz 14mm overhanginga tek dobacuje do nečije početne karakteristike ručke ...

U svakom slučaju primio sam k znanju tvoje upozorenje još onda kada smo je pregledali i unapredio protraktor do njegovog geometrijskog maksimuma u cilju što boljeg trackinga. Kupio 3 identična headshella, obzirom da šetam OM40 vrh od jedne do druge glave i obezbedio još dve glave/igle za preslušavanje novih polovnih ploča pre nego ih operam. Takođe slušam aktivno super OM10 vrh i mnogo ređe pustim OM10 baš radi kontrole druga dva ...

Mislim da nisam mogao da budem više oprezan od ovoga, a možda sam i mogao.

Svakako hvala na brizi, pravi si drug!